fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-12-13

[10:35:50 CST(-0600)] <huslage> fluid-everyone, i updated the mailing lists to recognize the new ocadu.ca domain

[11:23:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled and yura: A few weeks ago, we were talking about programming language performance

[11:23:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and the performance arc of JavaScript

[11:23:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I mentioned the "programming language shootout" site

[11:23:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's here

[11:23:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php

[11:24:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think it's worth noting where JavaScript now stands

[11:24:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Last I had looked at it-a year or two ago-JavaScript was up in the realm of PHP and Python

[11:24:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's now in the vicinity of C#, it appears

[11:25:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I've been doing some performance testing on my own time with Flocking, my audio synthesis library

[11:25:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> which clearly places some pretty severe demands on the runtime

[11:25:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and, though it's early, some interesting things are appearing

[11:25:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like the cost of a function call, for example, is really pretty minuscule these days

[11:26:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Benchmarks really show the impact of the various JIT compilation strategies of the runtimes

[11:26:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> etc.

[11:32:32 CST(-0600)] <yura> wow, it's the same order as java

[13:16:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: A quick question...

[13:16:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I hate to bug you with this

[13:17:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm making a few changes to the AccessForAll wiki we set up

[13:17:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the one called ISO24751

[13:17:19 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> right

[13:17:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think it's just an issue of the default theme

[13:17:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But I can't for the life of me figure out how to administer it

[13:17:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I want to change the theme

[13:17:48 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> it's possible you don't have admin access - I can fix that

[13:17:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> thank you

[13:18:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Can you also make kasper an admin for that space?

[13:18:15 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> sure

[13:19:37 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> ok, colinclark, you should be set up. But remember… "With great power…"

[13:19:44 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac>

[13:19:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> now you're off the hook, anastasiac

[13:19:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark>

[13:38:57 CST(-0600)] <kasper> avtar, huslage: I'm working on setting up a vagrant box for use in some GPII architecture stuff - and colin suggested I asked you about the preffered scripting for it (chef vs. puppet vs. shell)

[13:39:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: http://ariya.ofilabs.com/2011/12/introducing-esprima.html

[13:39:29 CST(-0600)] <avtar> hi kasper

[13:39:38 CST(-0600)] <kasper> (btw, I'm kasper from Raising the Floor, involved in Cloud4All/GPII)

[13:39:43 CST(-0600)] <kasper> hi avtar

[13:40:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> kasper is awesome, avtar

[13:40:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> He worked for years with yura and michelled and anastasiac on CollectionSpace

[13:40:14 CST(-0600)] <huslage> awesome kasper.

[13:40:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> our museum collections management system project

[13:40:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> He's now helping to coordinate Cloud4all

[13:40:36 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we're using puppet internally at the moment

[13:40:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and is on the development team with Bosmon, yura, Steve Githens, and me for Cloud4all

[13:41:25 CST(-0600)] <avtar> we'll be working on more puppet recipes for the current and future infrastructure so i think both aaron and i would lean more towards that

[13:41:32 CST(-0600)] <avtar> oops, too slow :/

[13:41:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> any particular reason we're gravitating towards it? Just that we've got it?

[13:42:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> kasper's on to something we'll be interested in, I think… exploring the use of Vagrant to provision development VMs for Cloud4all

[13:42:35 CST(-0600)] <huslage> vagrant supports either out of the box

[13:42:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Fedora 16, Node.js, npm, and various packages

[13:43:15 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we're all debian/ubuntu too, not that i'm all that religious

[13:43:32 CST(-0600)] <kasper> I haven't worked with either (puppet/chef) so I'm very unbiased

[13:43:42 CST(-0600)] <avtar> colinclark: yes

[13:43:58 CST(-0600)] <avtar> also, there are neat resources like this that we can utilize https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/gitweb?p=operations%2Fpuppet.git

[13:44:53 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage: I generally use ubuntu/debian as well

[13:45:15 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage, but we decided to go for fedora 16 as it comes with gnome-panel

[13:45:17 CST(-0600)] <huslage> gerrit is cute for code review

[13:45:19 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Hi colinclark - "esprima" sounds impressive

[13:45:32 CST(-0600)] <huslage> gnome-panel being used for?

[13:45:32 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I guess for some use cases, since it is not based on a grammar, it will be awkward that it is hard to extend

[13:45:41 CST(-0600)] <avtar> kasper: i've used chef in the past. both solutions offer pretty much the same features, puppet seems to be more widely adopted by organizations

[13:45:48 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i've been out of the gnome world for the longest time

[13:45:49 CST(-0600)] <kasper> which will make it easier to test the accesibility tools (like the screen magnifier)

[13:45:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok

[13:46:13 CST(-0600)] <avtar> huslage: yes, there are some wiki pages where they document their infrastructure

[13:46:21 CST(-0600)] <avtar> i'll try to dig up the urls

[13:46:31 CST(-0600)] <huslage> puppet/chef don't really care too much about distro anyway, kasper'

[13:47:01 CST(-0600)] <huslage> especially not between mainline distros like this

[13:47:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Our goal with Cloud4all's first round of development is to automatically configure a GNOME-based Linux desktop based on a user's personal preferences

[13:47:28 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage: neither do we actually - it was just that fedora had most stuff going for it out of the box, in the context of our usage

[13:47:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> GNOME Shell has some pretty nice assistive technologies built-in

[13:47:35 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yep

[13:47:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and the wonder that is gsettings

[13:47:38 CST(-0600)] <huslage> good nuff

[13:48:04 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> btw behold our new "MICROFRAMEWORK" : P

[13:48:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/amb26/infusion/blob/FLUID-4568/src/webapp/framework/core/js/Fluid.js

[13:48:17 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i need more crack

[13:48:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> brb

[13:48:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> lol

[13:48:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> erm, yes

[13:48:31 CST(-0600)] <kasper> haha

[13:48:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> huslage - That crack is so moreish

[13:49:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: It's amazing how much of our "micro framework" is filled with exception-handling craziness

[13:49:31 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes.... I'm thinking this should probably be trashed

[13:49:39 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Perhaps, ultimately, we don't actually need exceptions in JS

[13:50:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> At least, perhaps, split out?

[13:50:15 CST(-0600)] <avtar> kasper: i'm curious about this "fedora had most stuff going for it out of the box, in the context of our usage"

[13:50:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> avtar: partly, the answer is that we've got clown, who contributes to GNOME Shell

[13:50:50 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it really is Bosmon. i've been thinking about switching to MDMA

[13:50:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and Fedora is the only current distro that ships with GNOME Shell out of the box

[13:51:14 CST(-0600)] <kasper> colinclark, avtar: .. "mostly" rather than "partly"

[13:51:22 CST(-0600)] <avtar> gotcha

[13:51:24 CST(-0600)] <huslage> my guess is that Ubuntu will never support GNOME Shell natively

[13:51:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark>

[13:51:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> sad

[13:51:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Weirdly, I actually quite like GNOME Shell

[13:51:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> clown himself is on the fence

[13:51:48 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> colinclark - I think, if it is not in the core framework, that there is no use for it at all

[13:51:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but I think it's quite good

[13:51:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: How come?

[13:52:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ah

[13:52:09 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The worry about not handling exceptions properly is that they may stop code from being "correct"

[13:52:24 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> If we cease to worry about that in the "production configuration", there's no point worrying about it at all

[13:52:53 CST(-0600)] <huslage> colinclark: the group will need to come to terms with this at some point and provide support for multiple platforms, as i'm sure it knows.

[13:53:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "the group," meaning Cloud4all?

[13:53:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm pretty confident that, if Unity or other alternatives to GNOME Shell integrate with gsettings, that we can support them without needing to write any new code

[13:54:27 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage: we have a gnome group in spain that will work on getting the GPII work with gnome in general (at least that's my understanding)

[13:54:57 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> colinclark - but it's really only "fluid.tryCatch" that we might ditch

[13:54:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> And they have hundreds of Fedora-based sites in Andalusia, which will all use the system once it's in decent shape

[13:55:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Which is around 20 lines

[13:55:09 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The rest is most likely essential

[13:55:22 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> colinclark - what do these Andalusian sites do?

[13:55:27 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage: what bosmon, colin, yura and I are working on is just a 0.0.0.0.0.1 proof-of-concept type of thing - so we've chosen the easiest path

[13:55:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> They're public access sites

[13:55:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like the "CAP sites" here in Canada that used Web4All

[13:55:47 CST(-0600)] <huslage> very cool kasper

[13:55:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> kasper: lots of zeros there

[13:55:57 CST(-0600)] <kasper> the general architecture should be able to support any OS/dists

[13:56:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think we're architecting version 0.5

[13:56:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and implementing a microscopic vertical slice

[13:56:12 CST(-0600)] <kasper> colinclark, haha, that's very optimistic

[13:56:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Well, conceptually, the key pieces are in place for us to grow

[13:56:35 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> what we implement will, as you say, be very small at first

[13:56:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> a microscopic slice built with our new microframework

[13:57:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: I'm having trouble following the diff for your Fluid.js--can you summarize the main changes you made to it?

[13:57:56 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> colinclark - i) all of the view-related definitions were spun out to FluidView.js

[13:58:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ii) fluid.makeArray was reimplemented to be standalone, to avoid projecting too much stuff into jquery.standalone.js

[13:58:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/amb26/infusion/blob/FLUID-4568/src/webapp/framework/core/js/jquery.standalone.js

[13:58:42 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Which is now here

[13:59:06 CST(-0600)] <kasper> colinclark: yeah - big numbers just frighten me .. they seem so final and reminds me that there is a deadline at some point in the not-so-distant future

[13:59:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> 1000 picojQueries = 1 nanojQuery? : P

[13:59:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> kasper: yep, I know the feeling

[14:00:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I figure a good architecture should have three levels of "depth of field"

[14:00:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The long-term, big-picture vision of what the system will be capable of

[14:00:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The medium-term, which represents the goals for a reasonable set of milestones

[14:00:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and then the short term

[14:00:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> me and my extra dashes

[14:00:52 CST(-0600)] <kasper> colinclark, huslage, avtar: so do I understand correctly if puppet would be the way for me to go in terms of vagrant?

[14:02:50 CST(-0600)] <kasper> huslage, colinclark: cool, I'll go for puppet - and then cross my fingers that in the future you all comes to your senses and decide we should start using regular shell scripts instead

[14:02:59 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah no

[14:03:00 CST(-0600)] <huslage> hehe

[14:03:04 CST(-0600)] <kasper> hehe

[14:03:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> avtar: if you were to guess, will you use puppet with vagrant for the decapod dev environment work we were talking about earlier?

[14:03:41 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> What's fun is the test case file... https://github.com/amb26/infusion/blob/FLUID-4568/src/webapp/tests/framework-tests/core/html/FluidJSStandalone-test.html

[14:03:56 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So we actually need to bring in the REAL jquery otherwise we can't get jqunit to run....

[14:04:18 CST(-0600)] <avtar> colinclark: yes

[14:04:24 CST(-0600)] <avtar> sorry, was afk

[14:06:28 CST(-0600)] <avtar> it seems like it would be logical for us to focus our efforts on automating all our infrastructure using puppet

[14:06:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ok, cool

[14:06:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so you and kasper will be nicely aligned

[14:06:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and can maybe even share some scripts

[14:07:02 CST(-0600)] <avtar> for sure

[14:07:05 CST(-0600)] <kasper> colinclark: never!

[14:09:09 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Friends don't let friends share scripts...

[14:09:49 CST(-0600)] <kasper>

[14:45:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Does anyone know if it's possible to change a Confluence Space's key after it's been created?

[15:20:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Hey cindyli, can you tell me more about how we misused the HTML5 section element?

[15:20:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm curious

[15:27:09 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> colinclark: this article explains it - http://html5doctor.com/the-section-element/

[15:28:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cool, thanks cindyli

[15:28:39 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> np, colinclark

[15:29:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: I just created #fluid-tech

[15:29:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> we've also got #fluid-ops now

[15:29:26 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> wow, super

[15:29:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'll look into getting our friendly log bot to join us there

[15:29:36 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> That's really excellent

[15:29:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I believe it will required either a change on Eric's end or the use of a new bot

[15:33:52 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I believe it is the same BOTT everywhere

[15:39:07 CST(-0600)] <athena> unfortunately i'm not sure offhand how that gets updated

[15:54:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> fluid-everyone: You might all be interested in two new channels we're experimenting with...

[15:54:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> #fluid-ops for infrastructure-related discussion

[15:54:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> a good place to find avtar and huslage talking up a storm

[15:54:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and #fluid-tech (we can rename this) for very nerdy background chatter

[15:55:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> At the moment, #fluid-tech seems to be filled with a discussion of what happens when you use the "new" operator in JavaScript

[15:55:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> pretty fascinating, but not necessarily directly related to something everyone will be curious about

[15:55:52 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I think that #fluid-tech can also do double duty as #fluid-CATTTs : P

[15:56:10 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark: any chance we can get fluid-tech logged?

[15:57:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes, we'll get the bot in both

[15:57:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> once we figure out how to do so

[15:57:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> we've been borrowing a bot for awhile

[15:57:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> we might be stretching the generosity of our Jasig friends

[15:57:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> we'll have to ask