fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-12-08

[09:45:55 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've issued a pull request for STUDIO-9, the "consistent row height" https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/14

[09:46:17 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: I was about to ask how that was going (smile)

[09:46:24 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> it's not an ideal solution, and we should look for something better, but something better might take too long for James' students

[09:46:27 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I'll take a look at it

[09:47:13 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> cindyli, I found a bug on the 'tags' summary page and filed an issue for it: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/STUDIO-10 Do you think you could look into that?

[09:47:47 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> sure, anastasiac, i will have a look

[09:48:25 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I also found a small bug in the fix you made to get rid of the space between the excerpt and the tags: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/STUDIO-11 Not sure the cause, just saw the symptom

[09:48:57 CST(-0600)] <michelled> ok, I'll look

[09:49:10 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: what are you going to tackle next?

[09:49:27 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, hover styling on links - should be quick

[09:49:31 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> STUDIO-12

[09:50:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx

[09:50:24 CST(-0600)] <michelled> after that can you file the cross browser issues you noticed anastasiac?

[09:50:32 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> will do

[09:54:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: I don't have an ipad - how bad is the studio-9 fix on an ipad?

[09:54:29 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> good question, michelled (smile)

[09:54:47 CST(-0600)] <michelled> can you take a peek please (smile)

[09:57:01 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: sorry for all the distractions as I look at your pull request - did you run the new max title size by jvass?

[09:58:45 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I showed it to jamesqy, he thought it looked fine enough

[09:58:55 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jameswy, not jamesqy

[09:59:36 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cool

[10:03:06 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, the iPad seems happy with the consistent row height: in landspace mode you can see the whole first row, the pics of the second row and a sliver of the titles of the second row

[10:03:46 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> of course, iPhone is a whole other story (sad)

[10:04:07 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yes, we'll need to take a look at putting in your other branch I think

[10:05:20 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> it still needs some work, but if we have time to get to it, that would be great

[10:08:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli: can you cast your eyes over this pull request? you have much more php experience than I do and I'd love to know if you see places where it can be improved: https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/14/files

[10:08:55 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> no problem, michelled. will look

[10:19:29 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've filed a pull request for the hover styling. jvass has looked at it and thinks it looks good. https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/15

[10:19:43 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx anastasiac

[10:20:09 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: when I look at your pull for studio-9 I feel that there is too much whitespace between the rows

[10:20:13 CST(-0600)] <michelled> is that intentional?

[10:20:47 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, it's likely related to cross-browser differences. On some browsers, it looks like more space, but on others not. Which browser are you using?

[10:21:19 CST(-0600)] <michelled> apparently FF6

[10:21:29 CST(-0600)] <michelled> but I guess that will update itself now that I've checked

[10:21:46 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yeah, if I make the spacing nice in FF, it's too small in Safari, etc.

[10:22:33 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> not sure what to do about that, michelled. any suggestions?

[10:23:25 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I'm not sure anastasiac

[10:23:33 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I'm also not sure whether I should push this

[10:24:04 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> maybe we can see what jameswy thinks? whether or not its important enough to hold things up?

[10:25:23 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> anastasiac, michelled_: if it's only an issue with FF6, I wouldn't worry about it.

[10:25:40 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> anastasiac says it's an FF issue - not just 6

[10:26:01 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> with my awesome bandwidth I won't know for an hour (wink)

[10:30:19 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> michelled_: Just took a look at it across browsers with anastasiac. I'm pretty sure it's a browser font size issue; the base fonts sizes across browsers are different, and it's sometimes causing an extra line of text to pop up.

[10:30:48 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> It's okay for now though. We're only really ever going to see one line's worth of discrepancy.

[10:31:08 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> ok, thanks for looking

[10:31:13 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, will you be joining stand-up?

[10:31:55 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> I'll attempt to but I doubt I'll be able to

[10:47:35 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, IE problems: STUDIO-14 and STUDIO-15 (for IE8 and IE7 respectively)

[10:47:45 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> screenshots attached

[10:50:02 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled_: ^

[10:50:17 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> thx anastasiac

[11:23:43 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> cindyli - the jumpingness cannot be back!!

[11:23:47 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Can you tell me how you observed it?

[11:24:29 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: the jumping only occurs with wordpress context, from that i discovered so far

[11:24:43 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> the page is loaded with the gap at the top then closed up

[11:25:13 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i mean the gap above the UIO menu

[11:26:43 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Aha

[11:26:48 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Does the Sakao demo seem OK to you now?

[11:26:51 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Sakai

[11:29:35 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> cindyli^

[11:29:57 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> yes, the sakai dem looks OK

[11:30:01 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: ^

[11:30:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> "demo"

[11:30:13 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Ok, that is good

[11:30:22 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> How can I try out the wordpress theme?

[11:31:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: let me push the latest into my github branch and you can try from there. give me a few mins

[11:31:21 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Thanks.... although I guess I will need to install PHP somehow.... (sad)

[11:31:38 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Right. right

[11:31:44 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> glarg

[11:32:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> r u running windows?

[11:32:10 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> yes

[11:32:34 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> http://www.wampserver.com/en/

[11:32:52 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> wamp package that contains everything you need for running PHP

[11:33:00 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> you may have known of it

[11:33:10 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Awful

[11:34:11 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Xampp is also great. it has different versions for different platforms: http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html

[11:39:32 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: the wordpress branch - https://github.com/cindyli/studios.fluidproject.org/tree/STUDIO-6/

[11:40:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> What terrible English on this Wampserver site! : P

[11:41:01 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> haha, Bosmon, that's 'cuz your english is too excellent (smile)

[11:41:08 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> the fluid-studios theme that uses infusion is located @ wp-content/themes/fluid-studios

[11:41:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I found a site now where I can correct people's English all the time (smile)

[11:41:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So far I have been too scared to make a Chinese posting....

[11:41:43 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> really? that's cool, first, correct my English please

[11:41:49 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> hahaha

[11:41:53 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Your English is fine (smile)

[11:42:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> your chinese is enough to make a posting???!!!

[11:42:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> unbelievable

[11:42:16 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It is not really

[11:42:22 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I can talk at a kind of 3rd grade level : P

[11:42:38 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> amazing… better than my kid

[11:42:49 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> (wink)

[11:43:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Last night I learned the words for "McDonald's" : P

[11:43:23 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> great. let's talk in chinese next time we meet

[11:44:19 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> 太不好意思了!

[11:44:34 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ahhhh……

[11:45:07 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> whoa, u scared me. very good. you even know 拼音

[11:45:08 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Do you happen to know which out of wampserver and xampp might be more tolerant of the fact that I have mySQL and Tomcat already?

[11:45:52 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> xampp probably in this case

[11:49:54 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It doesn't seem to give me the option (sad)

[11:49:56 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I'll try the other one...

[11:50:09 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> which one you've tried?

[11:50:13 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> xampp

[11:50:23 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> what option do you need?

[11:50:28 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> which Mysql to star?

[11:50:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I want it not to install another MySQL

[11:50:46 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> no, i don't think you have option with both packages

[11:50:51 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> they are all self-contained

[11:51:17 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> you can always manually stop the any service that's started by the package

[11:51:30 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> xampp has a control panel sort of thing

[11:51:41 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> As God once observed, "if there's one thing I can't stand, it's MESS" : P

[11:51:47 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I'll try just installing apache by itself...

[11:51:56 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ok. fair enough

[12:01:04 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> colinclark: for ur curiosity, 太不好意思了 === Too embarrassed

[12:01:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> (smile)

[12:01:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> too embarrassed, CATTT

[12:01:32 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The Chinese character for CATTT is simply fantastic

[12:01:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: If WAMP or XAMPP is anything like MAMP, it'll install a totally self-contained Apache and MySQL running on different ports

[12:01:37 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Because it actually LOOKS like a CATT!

[12:01:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So I actually run a perfectly good Apache alongside MAMP without any trouble

[12:02:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> 猫!

[12:02:08 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> YOu see, at the left are the two CATT claws

[12:02:12 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> xampp performs the same way as mamp

[12:02:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> slash slash

[12:02:15 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> At the top are two small CATTT EARS

[12:02:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And at the bottom right is a round, squarish CATT BODY

[12:02:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> maybe it is napping?

[12:02:32 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> not sure about wamp, used it long time ago

[12:02:39 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes, it might be

[12:02:45 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I've always thought it is standing up, ready to slash something

[12:02:51 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I guess it depends on the perspective : P

[12:02:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> no tail and squarish

[12:02:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> a sure sign of napping

[12:03:01 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> hahaha

[12:03:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Are we on with Kasper nowise, Bosmon?

[12:03:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Oh, athena, I missed your conversation later in the channel last night

[12:03:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Sure

[12:03:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I noticed you were filing a uP bug for the no-chrome portal issue

[12:03:42 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> What is nowise?

[12:03:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> SPELL CHECKER!

[12:04:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I should just turn it off

[12:04:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that was supposed to be now-ish

[12:04:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I blame the spell checker for my problem with "awhile" vs. "a while"

[12:04:48 CST(-0600)] <athena> yeah colinclark i think we probably need to clean up a feature a bit so it doesn't cause errors

[12:04:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's our bug, too

[12:05:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I was wondering if, in the case where there is no drag handle, we should just not make the thing reorderable

[12:05:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> This sort of problem has two levels to it

[12:05:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> surely the Reorderer should at least throw a polite error

[12:05:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> which doesn't help you much

[12:05:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But then there's the question of how much or little we should do based on potential usability issues

[12:05:51 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The most fantastic thing is the character for the noise which the CATT makes

[12:05:54 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> 喵!

[12:05:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Certainly I could imagine things that are draggable even without a drag handle

[12:06:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> some other affordance

[12:06:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like maybe the whole portlet looks draggable

[12:06:09 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> You just draw a picture of the mouth... and then at the right, you put the CATT, minus its claws

[12:06:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so a handle would be redundant

[12:06:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Definitely in the case of the portal I saw last night, athena, there's no way a user could tell that the thing was still draggable

[12:06:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> What do you think?

[12:07:17 CST(-0600)] <athena> i think probably administrators should just lock down chrome-less content

[12:07:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it makes sense, yes

[12:07:36 CST(-0600)] <athena> but admins need a way to move it, potentially

[12:07:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> right

[12:07:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that makes sense

[12:07:47 CST(-0600)] <athena> so we could maybe add a handle to the administrative interface

[12:07:55 CST(-0600)] <athena> which already has some other random buttons

[12:07:56 CST(-0600)] <athena> dunno

[12:07:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Infusion, at very least, shouldn't be throwing raw errors like that

[12:27:19 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> anastasiac: i wrote a comment on your pull request 14. that's all

[12:27:49 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i mean that's all comment i have :-P

[12:29:02 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx cindyli (smile)

[12:32:27 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> np

[12:50:21 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I'll implement cindyli's suggested improvements for #14 and let you know when it's ready

[12:50:30 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx anastasiac

[13:01:44 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've updated pull request #14 with cindyli's suggestions.

[13:01:54 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx, I'll take alook

[13:16:53 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Ok cindyli

[13:17:04 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> After 1 full hour, I got the "5 minute Wordpress install" to work

[13:17:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> haha

[13:17:37 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> great that it's working eventually :-P

[13:17:42 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Tell me what I do next

[13:18:13 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: do you get my branch running?

[13:18:31 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> cindyli - I have no idea what is meant by "running" for a Wordpress plugin (smile)

[13:18:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Or theme

[13:18:36 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Or whatever it is

[13:18:38 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ah, i see

[13:18:46 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> login as admin

[13:18:53 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> This one I have done!

[13:18:59 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> go to settings -> theme

[13:19:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The last half hour was spent trying to login as admin

[13:19:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> choose fluid studios theme

[13:19:11 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> lol

[13:19:14 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> how could that happen?

[13:19:25 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Inexplicable

[13:19:35 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I had to drop all my tables in the raw database and let it regenerate them again

[13:19:44 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> yes, that's the point

[13:19:56 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> But I never had any to start with!

[13:20:00 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> wordpress saves some host info in database

[13:20:00 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It was a fresh install!

[13:20:08 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ah, interesting then

[13:20:45 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I don't see any "Theme" in Settings

[13:20:46 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> anyway, login as admin -> go to dashboard -> appearance -> themes

[13:20:54 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ah, appearance

[13:20:58 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> yes, sorry

[13:21:24 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Ok

[13:21:32 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So I just need to come by this zip file from somewhere?

[13:21:44 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> what zip file?

[13:21:52 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It asks me to upload a zip file

[13:21:52 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> once you go into themes page

[13:21:53 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> For a new theme

[13:22:03 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> there are a few existing themes that you can select

[13:22:09 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> "fluid studios" is one of them

[13:22:14 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> How could it be

[13:22:18 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Clearly I need to install it (smile)

[13:22:19 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> not on "install themes" tab

[13:22:25 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> at "manage themes" tab

[13:22:42 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes

[13:22:46 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Just 1 theme is installed

[13:22:47 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> "Twenty Ten 1.2"

[13:23:16 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i see

[13:23:42 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> can you check the existence of the folder "wp-content/themes/fluidstudios"

[13:24:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Of course it is not there!

[13:24:07 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Why would it be : P

[13:24:46 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> wordpress should auto-detecting the themes from the physical dirs and shows them on "manage themes" tab

[13:25:07 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> unless "wp-content/themes/fluidstudios" is not there at all

[13:25:14 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Of course it is not there at all

[13:25:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Noone put it there!

[13:25:20 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> what

[13:25:21 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> what

[13:25:25 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> did you check out my branch

[13:25:28 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes

[13:25:47 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ok, let me have a look into my branch

[13:26:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> it is there - https://github.com/cindyli/studios.fluidproject.org/tree/STUDIO-6/wp-content/themes/fluid-studios

[13:26:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Well, sure

[13:26:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Presumably I need to put it somewhere

[13:26:37 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> no, u don't need to

[13:26:54 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> it is already at where it should be

[13:27:47 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> let me do a fresh check-out of this branch and install

[13:29:02 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/17 (small style fixes)

[13:34:26 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> hey, Bosmon, i did a fresh install, seems working fine, the fluid-studios theme is there

[13:34:41 CST(-0600)] <michelled> Bosmon: we have a full version of wordpress in the studios git repo

[13:35:29 CST(-0600)] <michelled> it sounds like you have installed wordpress elsewhere and are using that version

[13:35:42 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Well, of course

[13:35:56 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ah, right, you are using "master" branch?

[13:36:11 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Well, really, assume I know nothing!

[13:36:14 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Becuase I don't (smile)

[13:36:29 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli: I think he's not using any branch (smile)

[13:36:31 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I have i) an installed version of wordpress, and ii) a checkout ofyour branch

[13:36:39 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ok

[13:36:42 CST(-0600)] <michelled> you don't require i)

[13:37:04 CST(-0600)] <michelled> using MAMP, I set my document root to the checkout of the repo

[13:37:04 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I have no idea what to do next

[13:37:12 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I see

[13:37:15 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i assume these 2 versions are in different directories

[13:37:34 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> How can that know how to connect to my MySQL database?

[13:38:37 CST(-0600)] <michelled> perhaps in the wp-config file?

[13:38:47 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> if you can access your wordpress installation, you mysql db must be up and running

[13:38:47 CST(-0600)] <michelled> we don't include that in the repo - just the sample

[13:39:26 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Perhaps you could make up a little wiki page, with instructions for someone to follow?

[13:39:29 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Or a readme.txt

[13:40:48 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: first, the check-out of my branch must be in a sub-directory of your web server document root folder

[13:41:08 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ha!

[13:41:26 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok, that is a useful first thing to know

[13:41:33 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> haha

[13:42:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli, anastasiac: I was taking a closer at functions.php and I was hoping we could clean that up a little

[13:42:41 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I'm wondering firstly about function naming - any reason some functions start with 'Studio' and other dont?

[13:43:13 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> to keep it simple and since your wordpress site is up and running, your wordpress must already in a sub-directory of document root

[13:44:22 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Bosmon: you can create a sibling directory besides "wordpress" and check out my branch in there

[13:44:58 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok

[13:45:02 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> then run a installation against this sibling directory

[13:45:28 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> assuming, you install wordpress by accessing "http://localhost/wordpress"

[13:45:53 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> install my branch by accessing "http://localhost/sibling-dir"

[13:47:04 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> don't forget to copy "wp-config-sample.php" inside "sibling-dir" to "wp-config.php" and put in your mysql db crendentials.

[13:47:28 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> Also, rmb to create a fresh empty database for this second installation

[13:47:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok

[13:51:15 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've only added a couple of functions to that file. I agree, we should try to be consistent with naming

[13:53:57 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli: do you know if there is a standard for naming in php?

[13:54:33 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> michelled: no as far as i know

[13:54:53 CST(-0600)] <michelled> we currently have function names separated by '_' as well as camel case as well as prefixed with 'Studio'

[13:55:53 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> michelled: ya, agree that we should standarize these things

[13:56:44 CST(-0600)] <michelled> do you have a preference cindyli?

[13:57:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Is there any scheme for namespacing in PHP?

[13:57:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> packages or anything like that?

[13:57:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Or do people use prefix conventions

[13:57:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like "wp_foo()"

[13:58:15 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> prefix is good

[13:59:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cindyli: I think we'd probably take your preferences for naming conventions

[14:00:07 CST(-0600)] <michelled> can you give a couple examples that you like cindyli? then we can formulate our standard

[14:00:11 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ah, thanks, michelled, do you wanna follow the current existing coding style that we inherit from Jonny

[14:00:24 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> like using "_" as word separator

[14:00:39 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i'm fine with Jonny's

[14:00:56 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> and open to the new for instance if we're going to add in prefix

[14:01:17 CST(-0600)] <michelled> that sounds fine to me - do you also think we should prefix with "Studio" or get rid of the prefix?

[14:01:49 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> should we use "fs" that stands for "fluid studios"

[14:01:55 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> since our css already uses it?

[14:02:41 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli: do you think we should prefix all the functions in functions.php or should we separate the things we add on top of Johnny's theme?

[14:02:50 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I know we're starting from another theme, but I imagine the assumption is that everything exists for the theme

[14:03:52 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: are you advocating for no prefix?

[14:04:08 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yes, I think so

[14:04:31 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cindyli: does that seem ok to you?

[14:04:38 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> certainly ok

[14:05:07 CST(-0600)] <michelled> all right - so just to recap we've decided to separate words in function names with underscore and not to use any prefix

[14:05:51 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: can you update your studio-9 pull request for the functions you added? then I'll make another JIRA for the general clean up and we can do the rest there.

[14:06:43 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so the convention will be no prefix, and underscores instead of camel case, michelled and cindyli?

[14:07:09 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yes

[14:07:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ok, michelled

[14:10:16 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've updated the pull request with the new naming conventions for the functions I added

[14:10:50 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx

[14:12:04 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I created the cleanup JIRA: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/STUDIO-17

[14:13:58 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've issued a pull reques for STUDIO-13: https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/18

[14:20:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I don't understand the rationale for no-prefix

[14:20:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm not averse to it

[14:20:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I just don't understand it

[14:22:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled, anastasiac, or cindyli: ^

[14:23:42 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> haha, we are swaying back and forth

[14:23:54 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, what would your rational be for a prefix?

[14:24:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I don't have one

[14:24:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I don't yet have any opinion at all on this topic

[14:24:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm curious

[14:24:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and assumed there would be clear arguments for a given decision

[14:24:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Which is why I asked

[14:25:00 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> my thoughts are: the idea for a prefix would be to distinguish functions that are part of our themes from functions that are not part of our theme

[14:25:17 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> but we're talking about a file within our theme, which means that everything in it is part of our theme

[14:25:25 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so there's nothing there to distinguish it from

[14:25:41 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> but I could be convinced otherwise (smile)

[14:25:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> How about other PHP functions available, either in the standard library or in WordPress?

[14:26:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Or future changes to our theme to link in other third-party libraries?

[14:26:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Are any of those a concern?

[14:27:11 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> the wp code seems to use a mix of no-prefix and "wp-" prefix

[14:27:41 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so there could be a concern there, and other libraries could certainly be a concern

[14:28:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> okay, given those potential concerns...

[14:28:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> any reason to reevaluate your no prefix suggestion, anastasiac, or are we okay?

[14:29:03 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> certainly reason to re-evaluate, colinclark. michelled, cindyli, what do you think?

[14:29:26 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> "with-prefix" is safer

[14:29:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cindyli: Am I correct in my assumption that PHP pages share the a single global namespace?

[14:30:08 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ah, i'd like say "no" if i understood your question correctly

[14:30:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Is there any kind of package system, or other way to express modularity?

[14:30:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> In other words, if I had a function called foo() in my library

[14:30:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and you had a function called foo() in your library

[14:31:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and anastasiac wanted to use both libraries

[14:31:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> what would happen?

[14:31:18 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> collision that throws error

[14:32:23 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i don't think there's a way to stop this from happenning in php

[14:32:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, as a user

[14:32:39 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> right

[14:32:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> What would anastasiac have to do to use both of our libraries?

[14:32:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Change one of them? (smile)

[14:33:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> good question

[14:34:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Given your experience thinking through this issue in depth when we first met JavaScript, and our new knowledge expertly shared by cindyli...

[14:34:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> what's your recommendation?

[14:35:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> since PHP 5.3, there's a namespace system that has been introduced but it probably require the functions being written in classes rather than plain functions

[14:35:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ah, interesting

[14:35:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Seems like not a lot of libraries would do this yet, I can imagine

[14:35:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> PHP is a lot like JavaScript in many ways

[14:36:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess there are also closures now, too. Do many people use them yet, cindyli?

[14:36:26 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> what closures?

[14:36:44 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> sorry, I was in the middle of filing a JIRA. Sounds like it would be wise to namespace our theme somehow, either with a prefix on all functions or creating a class

[14:37:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Functions with lexical scope, cindyli

[14:37:48 CST(-0600)]

<colinclark> Like in JavaScript: function () { var cat = "Sirius"; return function (prefix)

Unknown macro: { return prefix + " " + cat; }


[14:37:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> stupid example

[14:37:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but you know them

[14:37:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you use them all the time in JS (smile)

[14:37:59 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> no

[14:38:06 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> yes, i used them

[14:38:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> http://php.net/manual/en/functions.anonymous.php

[14:38:14 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> no, i mean it's different in PHP

[14:38:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Ah, really?

[14:39:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Example #3 makes it seem like PHP closures are pretty much similar to functions in JS

[14:39:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: I'm thinking the same thing

[14:40:01 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> michelled, I've filed a pull request for STUDIO-11: https://github.com/fluid-project/studios.fluidproject.org/pull/19

[14:41:47 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark: the argument that I didn't spell out for going without prefixes was to stay consistent with FSS Five. I'm thinking of cleaning up our functions file to separate out the FSS Five section from anything we added

[14:42:07 CST(-0600)] <michelled> at that point adding a prefix to our functions seems like a good idea

[14:43:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: Both seem worthwhile to me

[14:43:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Splitting our stuff out from Johnny's

[14:43:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and putting a prefix

[14:43:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It seems pretty straightforward to me--forgive me if I'm missing anything

[14:44:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but if PHP is a shared namespace environment, we should just apply our same basic programming principles to it as we did with JS

[14:45:22 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yes, that makes sense

[14:45:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess we know a number of basic principles

[14:45:49 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon would probably call them "axioms" in capital letters, perhaps with some extra consonants

[14:46:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But namespacing is one of the basic principles of what I'd call "social programming"

[14:46:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> even if we're just being social with ourselves

[14:46:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> There are aspects of dependency management, configuration, user extension, etc. that might also define as core programming principles

[14:47:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that should guide us through pretty much any programming language out there

[14:48:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I sense some love coming!

[14:48:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage is here@!

[14:48:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> wait, that came out sort of wrong

[14:48:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> (smile)

[14:49:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ohhhh

[14:49:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> disappointing

[14:49:31 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ohai. look what i put up just now

[14:49:33 CST(-0600)] <huslage> http://studios.fluidproject.org/

[14:49:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> OH LOOK! ^^^

[14:50:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac, michelled, and cindyli

[14:50:35 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yay!!

[14:50:39 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> beatiful

[14:50:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I have an admin account

[14:50:49 CST(-0600)] <michelled> huslage: awesome!

[14:50:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> let me know who needs it

[14:50:55 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I do (smile)

[14:50:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: You rule

[14:51:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> just in the nick of time

[14:51:04 CST(-0600)] <huslage> thanks (smile)

[14:51:20 CST(-0600)] <michelled> huslage: is there also a dev site?

[14:51:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Any chance it's being backed up onto our super-fancy 0.25U 0-socket servers?

[14:51:21 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> is there a dev version?

[14:51:24 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it doesn't auto-deploy on update, but someone can login and git-pull it

[14:51:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> aka the minis?

[14:51:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Yep, that's fine

[14:51:33 CST(-0600)] <huslage> not yet colin.

[14:51:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: np

[14:52:25 CST(-0600)] <huslage> anastasiac: no. it's just wordpress and is in github, so you can install it wherever

[14:52:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: So I think they just need another clone of it

[14:52:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> pointing to the development branch

[14:52:48 CST(-0600)] <huslage> for dev

[14:52:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yep, exactly

[14:52:54 CST(-0600)] <huslage> this is just master.

[14:52:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok

[14:52:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> unless you can think of a better solution

[14:53:00 CST(-0600)] <huslage> you people

[14:53:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> this is what we did with the new IDI site, I think

[14:53:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yeah, we're so demanding

[14:53:10 CST(-0600)] <huslage> vagrantup.com is your friend

[14:53:14 CST(-0600)] <huslage> (wink)

[14:53:17 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i'll do it

[14:53:29 CST(-0600)] <huslage> now that i know what to do to make it work right, it's not hard

[14:53:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I remember Avtar mentioning this to me in his interview

[14:53:54 CST(-0600)] <huslage> well. wordpress gets twitchy

[14:53:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We do, for the record, develop locally on our machines

[14:54:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We just want a place where we can prototype content and get design reviews

[14:54:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that isn't our production site

[14:54:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so it's a bit different from heidi's old notion of dev

[14:54:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> where we used to actually write code on the server

[14:54:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that is now not something we do anymore

[14:54:30 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i know

[14:54:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> to great effect (smile)

[14:54:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> indeed

[14:56:22 CST(-0600)] <huslage> wait. there's only one branch

[14:56:28 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's 'development'

[14:56:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> there should be three

[14:56:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> master is production

[14:56:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> odd

[14:56:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> development is, erm, you know

[14:56:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "git branch" won't necessarily show them all

[14:57:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> huslage: you need to do a fetch

[14:57:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yep

[14:57:20 CST(-0600)] * huslage dumb

[14:57:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> not

[14:57:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Vagrant, I think, will be really great for Decapod

[14:57:54 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok…git checkout master

[14:58:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The amount of effort we put into setting up a Deca VM is pretty high

[14:58:23 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark, anastasiac, cindyli: did we decide on a prefix? I heard "Studios" and "fs"

[14:58:45 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I prefer 'fs' - do you think it's too short?

[14:58:49 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "studios" is pretty long to prefix every fn with, no?

[14:58:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ah, beat me to it

[14:59:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> arg. i've gitted myself up

[14:59:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Can I help?

[14:59:26 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i did git checkout master

[14:59:30 CST(-0600)] <huslage> and now it's braindead

[14:59:35 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it was on development

[14:59:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's possible that the master branch is currently brain dead

[14:59:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: What's in the master branch at the moment?

[14:59:50 CST(-0600)] <huslage> well then

[15:00:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: And you think "fluid" or "fl" is too generic?

[15:00:21 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I think it's a clean wordpress

[15:00:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Is that what you mean by braindead?

[15:00:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> i.e. has no wp-config.php

[15:01:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> no. i made the wp-config

[15:01:19 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i'm trying to make sure the thing is on the right branch so you can just 'git pull'

[15:02:04 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark: that's an interesting question - I suppose everything we are creating might be used on other fluid wordpress sites

[15:04:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that'd be interesting, michelled

[15:04:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess in JavaScript we have a slightly more convenient, though more verbose, method of namespacing

[15:04:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> because we have have a hierarchy

[15:04:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like fluid.studios

[15:05:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> prefix-style tends to require shorter names

[15:05:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: yes. Can I help?

[15:05:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> fl_ or fs_ or stu_ all seem fairly reasonable

[15:06:25 CST(-0600)] <huslage> colinclark: sure you can help

[15:07:02 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I vote for fl_ with the intention of reusing across sites

[15:07:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Lay it on me, dude

[15:07:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> colinclark: is the development branch of that studios repo the only valid one currently?

[15:08:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> at the moment, yes

[15:08:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: Is there any reason to merge dev into master so that both sites work?

[15:08:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Or just have the master site be dead for a little bit longer?

[15:08:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it's up to you guys

[15:09:25 CST(-0600)] <michelled> we can merge the dev branch into master

[15:09:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Seem reasonable to you?

[15:09:45 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I was waiting until I actually felt it was something we wanted to release but it's not too bad now

[15:10:04 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's perty

[15:10:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I'll push unless someone wants me to wait

[15:10:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: So, you can just set up both repos up, one pointing to dev and one to master

[15:10:23 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok

[15:10:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> register michelled's SSH key for the box

[15:10:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and she can pull down the correct changes

[15:10:34 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok

[15:10:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess we'll have two different DBs as well, huslage?

[15:10:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yes

[15:10:51 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i'm waiting on dns to clear up

[15:10:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> okay, great

[15:10:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> not bad at all

[15:11:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: I have a few other infrastructure needs, but I was thinking I'd wait...

[15:11:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> give you the time to hack on our minis

[15:11:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and then maybe you could walk Avtar through some of these tasks next week?

[15:11:29 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah i really want to get that finished

[15:11:33 CST(-0600)] <huslage> sure

[15:11:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Two new mailing lists on fluidproject.org and a Media Wiki are on the horizon

[15:11:53 CST(-0600)] <huslage> k

[15:11:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you and I might need to work out our Media Wiki strategy beforehand

[15:11:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> if such a strategy can even exist

[15:12:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> given that namespaces probably won't quite work for us

[15:12:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i've been trying to think about that

[15:12:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> in my copious free time

[15:13:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> lol

[15:13:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> me too

[15:13:09 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> michelle, cindyli - I'm wondering why our studios project contains a whole Wordpress rather than just a theme - are there other customisations we might want to make?

[15:13:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> what a coincidence

[15:13:25 CST(-0600)] <huslage> also we need to figure out CI and stuff

[15:13:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: I can answer that

[15:13:28 CST(-0600)] <huslage> but you know.

[15:13:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yep

[15:13:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon: So, we have two categories of repositories in github now

[15:13:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "ops repositories"

[15:13:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and "code"

[15:14:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The ops repos are actually our websites

[15:14:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the actual thing that is deployed on our servers

[15:14:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so, you might have gathered from huslage's questions

[15:14:28 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Minus their dbs, I guess

[15:14:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> What do we do with those?

[15:14:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes, unfortunately

[15:14:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Right now, we don't have a formal strategy

[15:14:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> in the long run, we'll probably have a private Git repo for those kinds of artifacts

[15:14:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> db dumps and config files and the like

[15:15:02 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah

[15:15:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> in the meantime, they're maintained by hand

[15:15:12 CST(-0600)] <huslage> dev.studios.fluidproject.org is up

[15:15:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> which isn't the end of the world

[15:15:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok

[15:15:31 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And in terms of our "fluid theme" - is there a plan for that to be stored in a "code repository" too?

[15:15:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So we don't really think that the theme is a "product" in itself

[15:15:36 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I see

[15:15:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> There is a separate effort on that front

[15:15:46 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thx huslage - that's great

[15:15:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> all these efforts will eventually converge

[15:15:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but it's been slowed down with heidi on mat leave

[15:16:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So that is the plan, in time?

[15:16:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and no one currently to build sites

[15:16:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Heidi had started to sketch out another FSS module

[15:16:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> which she was tentatively calling fss-site

[15:16:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that represented the higher-level semantics of a web site

[15:16:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> headers, footers, navigation, etc.

[15:17:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> And then we'd have fairly generic themes for our various CMSes

[15:17:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> One for WordPress, another for Media Wiki, etc.

[15:17:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Much of the theming of a site would be done with the FSS

[15:17:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> meaning a single stylesheet would power the consistent look and feel for multiple systems

[15:17:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and the WordPress theme, for example, would largely be responsible for generating suitable FSS markup and classnames

[15:18:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> What about the aspects of the "theme" that go beyond the FSS

[15:18:18 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> To include a packaging of all of Infusion (or, that is, UIOptions)

[15:18:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> That's a good question, probably unanswered as yet

[15:18:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ah, yes

[15:18:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> they'd be part of the CMS theme

[15:18:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so there will definitely be a convergence of the stuff here in the Studios

[15:18:48 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And would that come to be considered a "product"?

[15:18:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think so, yes

[15:19:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Some day, it seems like it might be quite useful to others

[15:19:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We should undoubtedly develop with that in the backs of our minds

[15:19:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> back of our minds

[15:19:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess we might have multiple minds

[15:19:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Especially if we are ANTS

[15:19:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I just don't want to encumber the "quick and dirty" process of getting this Studios site up

[15:19:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> wow

[15:20:00 CST(-0600)] <huslage> FSS-site

[15:20:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> that's high tech

[15:20:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Does it seem like a fairly sane approach?

[15:20:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> All of you who are paying attention?

[15:20:12 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it sounds bold

[15:20:16 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It does

[15:20:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Seem sane

[15:20:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The big problem I see with multiple CMSes is that you have theme them over and over again

[15:20:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so this would solve a good chunk of that problme

[15:20:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> through layering

[15:21:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: High tech, but sane?

[15:21:11 CST(-0600)] <huslage> totally sane

[15:21:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac, michelled, cindyli: what do you guys think?

[15:25:15 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> sounds good but challenging

[15:25:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yeah, it's going to be a lot of work

[15:25:48 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> i imagine different sites have different data to be presented in header or sidebar

[15:26:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yup

[15:26:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think the key is that it would be akin to an FSS theme today

[15:26:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it would define things like overall layout, colouring, etc.

[15:26:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So that we could, for example, have an IDI theme

[15:26:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that made all our sites at least look reasonably consistent across systems, etc.

[15:26:54 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> ok, that makes sense

[15:27:02 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It assumes something a little bit naively

[15:27:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that sites fit these sort of stereotypes

[15:27:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> with, you know, a header and then some content in the centre and then a navigation bar

[15:27:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> or whatever

[15:27:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but it could at least be a good starting point

[15:27:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled_: is "michelled" a good username for you?

[15:32:11 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> colinclark: yep - that would be great

[15:36:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled_: You're all set on both the dev and production Studios sites

[15:36:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: Were you able to register michelled_'s SSH key for the server?

[15:36:40 CST(-0600)] <huslage> working on it. got distracted by git

[15:37:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> no problem

[15:37:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> git's cool to get distracted by

[15:39:58 CST(-0600)] <huslage> michelled_: you can already login as floe on that server

[15:40:10 CST(-0600)] <michelled_> thx huslage

[15:40:12 CST(-0600)] <huslage> so i've just added links to the directories and you should be able to git stuff

[15:40:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i changed perms

[15:41:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: When we have our new cloud

[15:41:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> how "promiscuous" do you imagine we'll be with VMs

[15:41:30 CST(-0600)] <huslage> fairly

[15:41:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm sort of fuzzily thinking through the potential of this kind of a system

[15:41:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, for this use case

[15:41:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> would you, on our cloud, have just spun up a new VM

[15:41:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> from a standard WP Chef recipe or something?

[15:42:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we might want to use LXC instead of KVM if we want to get really promiscuous

[15:42:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> For the Studios, I mean

[15:42:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> this? http://lxc.sourceforge.net/

[15:42:35 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i would probably have an image that takes, as a bootstrap parameter, a git repo to clone

[15:42:44 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah that colinclark

[15:42:48 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's lighter weight

[15:42:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> right

[15:43:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, regardless of KVM vs. LXC

[15:43:17 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah...

[15:43:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you'd probably have some pre-configured "git-backed PHP website" VM?

[15:43:26 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah exactly

[15:43:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and then it'd take a pointer to a repo and some other parameters

[15:43:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and that's that

[15:43:39 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yep

[15:43:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I was thinking that we might want to ultimately model our daily builds in this fashion, too

[15:43:56 CST(-0600)] <huslage> maybe a pointer to a db and user and password or something

[15:44:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> right

[15:44:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Rather than having a monolithic Ci server

[15:44:03 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we can do all sorts of magic

[15:44:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but just spin up a mini-VM for a given repo or "project"

[15:44:20 CST(-0600)] <huslage> well, the nice thing about a CI server is that you can monitor stuff

[15:44:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes

[15:44:23 CST(-0600)] <huslage> but yeah

[15:44:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> interestingly, I'm realizing there is so little to monitor in this interpreted world

[15:44:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we could have tests run at startup in some "dev mode" or something

[15:44:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> right

[15:45:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> At least in JavaScript, tests are now orthogonal to builds

[15:45:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> with TestSwarm

[15:45:10 CST(-0600)] <huslage> well theoretically you could run unit and functional tests with some sort of automation

[15:45:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and even in PHP and Python, you're not really building anything

[15:45:22 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah

[15:45:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess you haven't heard of any CI systems that work this way, eh?

[15:45:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's a little bit outdated

[15:45:40 CST(-0600)] <huslage> not really. there was a ruby one that came kinda close

[15:46:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> A devops friend of mine was suggesting that something like Capistrano or Fabric might work for these kinds of things

[15:46:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's been something i've been thinking about

[15:46:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yeah, me too

[15:46:37 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah it works, but i think it's almost overkill

[15:46:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> You're probably right

[15:47:01 CST(-0600)] <huslage> deployment infrastructure ephemeral VMs seems odd

[15:47:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It'd be quite useful, I imagine, for desktop-based projects

[15:47:13 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's too decoupled in a way

[15:47:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> why?

[15:47:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> because the OS is almost incidental

[15:47:47 CST(-0600)] <huslage> the OS is just a thing and we're pushing code on top of it and then throwing it all away

[15:47:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> instead of just having the OS copy the bits and run them

[15:47:59 CST(-0600)] <huslage> then throw it all away

[15:48:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> and as a dying breath send some logfile somewhere

[15:48:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> right

[15:48:58 CST(-0600)] <huslage> CI systems and deployment systems have this idea that infrastructure always exists

[15:49:03 CST(-0600)] <huslage> in this instance, it doesn't need to

[15:49:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes

[15:49:12 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it can come into existence and disappear

[15:49:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> and probably should

[15:49:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Which is really in line with what builds do

[15:49:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> they're very much time-based things

[15:49:39 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i think that's why vagrant is impressive to me.

[15:49:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but, as I say, probably only really meaningful in a desktop context

[15:49:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> like Decapod

[15:49:48 CST(-0600)] <huslage> no not really

[15:49:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> no?

[15:49:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> where there's real work involved in getting an OS set up

[15:50:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> before you can do a meaningful build and test cycle

[15:50:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> but you just have some generic OS

[15:50:08 CST(-0600)] <huslage> that supports anything

[15:50:16 CST(-0600)] <huslage> anything that you usually run

[15:50:19 CST(-0600)] <huslage> the "box"

[15:50:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I get the feeling that we're going to have a ton of work for us, relatively up-front

[15:50:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> possibly

[15:50:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> in terms of defining these various base images

[15:50:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> for our core infrastructure

[15:50:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> but it's really just LAMP, Rails, Django, that sort of thing

[15:50:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yep

[15:51:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, I guess that answers our Media Wiki question, really

[15:51:02 CST(-0600)] <huslage> vagrant could be just as good in a CI context

[15:51:07 CST(-0600)] <huslage> is what i'm saying

[15:51:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it makes sense

[15:51:29 CST(-0600)] <huslage> my son just asked me to turn off the tv so he could watch THE SAME SHOW on the ipad

[15:51:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> lol

[15:51:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so futuristic

[15:51:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Today we got rid of our cable TV

[15:51:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> the kid knew how to use ipads and iphones when he was 15 months old

[15:51:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and Darcie said "The only thing I miss is the clock on the front of the HD box"

[15:52:03 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah!

[15:52:10 CST(-0600)] <huslage> we haven't had cable for almost 2 years

[15:52:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's really rare that we miss it

[15:52:33 CST(-0600)] <huslage> the roku box is cool too

[15:52:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> my boxee box is pretty okay

[15:52:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it's no apple tv

[15:52:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but it can actually play formats

[15:53:08 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i have an old appletv too. it's good for movies and stuff that we have on applestuff

[15:54:11 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i played with boxee box. it was ok, but seemed overpriced

[15:54:35 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Mine was on sale

[15:54:46 CST(-0600)] <huslage> fancy

[15:54:49 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Its biggest weakness is a poor "n" card

[15:54:53 CST(-0600)] <huslage> 5 finger discount

[15:54:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> lol

[15:54:58 CST(-0600)] <huslage> THIEF

[15:55:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you know me

[15:55:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> SHADY

[15:55:15 CST(-0600)] <huslage> "sailing"

[15:55:19 CST(-0600)] <huslage> "Darcie"

[15:55:25 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i know…oh I KNOW

[15:55:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> lol

[15:55:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I live a convincing fiction

[15:55:56 CST(-0600)] <huslage> me too, it's fun

[15:59:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> If you get down to the "Nuts and Bolts" section, this might be a good model in the future for the Studios: http://blog.jquery.com/2011/12/08/what-is-happening-to-the-jquery-plugins-site/

[15:59:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I read this article and kept thinking "if only they'd deleted most of the jQuery plugins instead of just the site hosting them"

[16:01:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> huslage: I didn't realize there was controversy around Xen until I was talking to the Nebula guys the other day

[16:01:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and they mentioned Citrix's control of the project and the fact that they're not releasing things as openly

[16:01:52 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yep

[16:01:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess maybe analogous to the Eucaplytus situation that gave birth to OpenStack

[16:02:10 CST(-0600)] <huslage> KVM is "owned" by Red Hat, but they actually understand open source (wink)

[16:02:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I had wondered why you were gravitating towards KVM

[16:02:23 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it's also where all the dev is going

[16:02:35 CST(-0600)] <huslage> (because of the Citrix stuff)

[16:02:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, I was thinking about our technical criteria

[16:02:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> for the RFP

[16:02:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and our conversation yesterday

[16:02:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> while it might be hard to quantify Nebula compliance

[16:03:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think they might have given us the key yesterday on the call

[16:03:10 CST(-0600)] <huslage> i like this nuts-n-bolts thing, btw

[16:03:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, audio was bad at one point

[16:03:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but Cole mentioned that they have a custom piece of the hardware

[16:03:25 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok

[16:03:31 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah their box

[16:03:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yeah, a piece of the box

[16:03:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it had a name, but I'm dumb

[16:03:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> whose job it is to read and configure smbios

[16:03:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and, I swear he said to "generate JSON" from it

[16:04:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> which is awesome for other reasons

[16:04:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but, in short, Cole said that their goal is to support any hardware

[16:04:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but at the moment the machine had to have smbios

[16:04:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Does that sound about right?

[16:04:27 CST(-0600)] <huslage> oooh

[16:04:31 CST(-0600)] <huslage> cool

[16:04:35 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> They seemed to think it would be easy to support any machine with smbios

[16:04:36 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah

[16:04:40 CST(-0600)] <huslage> it sounds sane at least

[16:04:46 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so that's probably our eval criteria right there

[16:04:54 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yeah i think you're right

[16:05:12 CST(-0600)] <huslage> basically it needs to talk SMBIOS, which means it also needs IPMI for remote management

[16:05:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> that was it

[16:05:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "ip-mee"

[16:06:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so IPMI is something the server hardware supports?

[16:06:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> or doesn't support

[16:06:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Dell, HP, Intel, NEC

[16:06:30 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yep

[16:06:44 CST(-0600)] <huslage> they are kind of tied together

[16:06:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> okay

[16:07:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> Cisco has this on their standalone boxes, but not on their blade machines.

[16:07:07 CST(-0600)] <huslage> for instance

[16:07:15 CST(-0600)] <huslage> but it's all wrapped in API crap

[16:07:23 CST(-0600)] <huslage> (turned into xml)

[16:07:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> If you were to write the sentence that specified something to the effect of "Respondents must include a statement outlining the support of their solution for…"

[16:07:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> what would it say?

[16:07:43 CST(-0600)] <huslage> IPMI and SMBIOS

[16:07:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> okay

[16:07:50 CST(-0600)] <huslage> that's it really

[16:07:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> easy enough, then (smile)

[16:07:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I had trouble sleeping last night...

[16:07:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> And at some point, half asleep

[16:07:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the thought came over me

[16:08:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Cisco spends all this time generating XML

[16:08:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so I guess Cole really did say "JSON"

[16:08:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It just seemed strange

[16:08:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but I guess it makes sense

[16:08:34 CST(-0600)] <huslage> um. ouch.

[16:08:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you need to take this stuff from the hardware level into a form that is processable in the software stack

[16:08:41 CST(-0600)] <huslage> yep

[16:08:47 CST(-0600)] <huslage> and in some standardized form

[16:08:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess we can hack on it with Infusion, then (smile)

[16:09:05 CST(-0600)] <huslage> so you don't have edge cases all over the place

[16:09:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Using our JSON transformation framework, etc.

[16:09:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> infusion can live in dashboard

[16:09:23 CST(-0600)] <huslage> you don't need to tlak to hardware

[16:09:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But I want to talk to hardware!

[16:09:55 CST(-0600)] <huslage> ok. go for it

[16:10:00 CST(-0600)] <huslage> break it all!!!

[16:10:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> trust me

[16:10:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm 733t

[16:10:18 CST(-0600)] <huslage> toe tuh lee

[16:12:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, do you want to talk to HP with me next week?

[16:12:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I figure we should cover them

[16:12:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> given the Nebula's support for the CL-series