fluid-work IRC Logs-2013-04-09

[08:11:30 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> morning jhung - let me know if i can help at all with 4938. i think it's just taking the demo and replacing font icons w images

[08:12:52 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> heidiv: I'm still catching up on stuff. I didn't think we were going to be doing any more work on demo branch?

[08:13:11 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung this would be a way of pulling styling from demo to master

[08:13:15 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> we can skype, sec

[08:25:12 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung does 4970 have all demo stuff, or just styling? i.e how's it different than the demo branch itself

[08:25:48 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Just styling heidiv. So it's not functional.

[08:25:55 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung ok cool

[08:26:16 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> We're waiting for JS files like sliding panel etc to get pushed to master (or at least a branch somewhere).

[08:26:29 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung what needs to be pulled into master for it to become functional - something cindyli and justin are workin on?

[08:26:42 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> I think so heidiv.

[08:26:42 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> a particular jira or a bunch of stuff?

[08:26:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> k

[08:26:55 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> cindyli: is that correct?

[08:27:14 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> i.e. you and justin_o are merging in javascript to master from demo?

[08:27:33 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> yes, jhung

[08:28:46 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> cool. Is there a branch we heidiv and I can pull from?

[08:29:17 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> jhung: and heidiv, in case you need to work off our branch: https://github.com/jobara/infusion/tree/FLUID-4927-b

[08:29:31 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> cindyli cool, thanks

[08:29:38 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> np

[08:31:19 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> cool thank cindyli

[09:08:19 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung fyi i've pushed my 4970, which has j/cindy's branch merged in. styling tweaks needed. do you want to start swapping out the header icons w images and i'll work on the contrast panel?

[09:09:24 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> What work is needed for the contrast panel heidiv?

[09:09:40 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung replace the indicator icon and fix the broken styling

[09:09:58 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Leave the icon stuff for now since I'm still working on the images.

[09:10:11 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> k

[09:10:35 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> But they will be 37x37 px images.

[09:19:04 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung stripping out icons now. got any images?

[09:20:36 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> heidiv: jhung I can convert our icons to images if you want

[09:21:58 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> arashs: Thanks but I've started on that work. It isn't a straight conversion since the icon images are simplified from the original (i.e. originals have subtle gradients and an overlay).

[09:22:51 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> heidiv: I hope to have the whole kit ready for this afternoon including contrast versions. I much rather do all at once than one at a time in case I need to adjust sizes etc.

[09:23:40 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> jhung makes sense! ok

[09:31:04 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> jhung: no problem, shouldn't be hard, I think you can apply the effects on all of them together

[10:25:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark, michelled, yzen, Bosmon: are you able to explain how to use IoCSS and distributeOptions

[10:26:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yzen's probably your best bet, Justin_o

[10:26:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Though I have seen some examples of its use around

[10:28:25 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: I was looking at this https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/blob/master/src/webapp/components/uploader/js/Uploader.js#L366-L370

[10:28:53 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> from there i'm assuming that it takes the source, minus the exclusions, and itself, and merges them onto the target

[10:29:30 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> however our use case in UIO is not so simple since there are many more components at different nestings.. I'm wondering if we should be able to pass in an array or these objects or if there is a different mechanism for that

[10:30:13 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> Justin_o: i haven't used it myself but was chatting with Bosmon couple of weeks ago, can you give an example of those different levels of nesting ?

[10:32:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> yzen: basically we need to change this bit from UIO https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/blob/master/src/webapp/components/uiOptions/js/UIOptions.js#L210-L221

[10:43:29 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> Justin_o: I wonder if distribute options can be an array in itself

[10:43:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> yzen: yes.. i'm hoping that is the case, but haven't seen any examples of that

[10:45:27 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> Justin_o: i guess the best bet it to try stepping through it unless Bosmon is around..

[10:51:46 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, yzen's chat with Bosmon was logged: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/fluid-tech+IRC+Logs-2013-02-15

[11:00:59 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o: distributeOptions can be an array

[11:01:13 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it would be an array of these objects

[11:01:31 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> anastasiac: thanks!

[11:12:29 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> yzen, anastasiac: thanks

[11:24:41 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, yzen: I've started a wiki page with what I know so far about IoCSS: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/docs/IoCSS This is still very sketchy since I'm still learning. If you see any lies, please let me know!!

[12:00:28 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> kasper: ping

[12:04:48 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> avtar: pong

[12:06:25 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> i believe colin is on his way to the office

[12:06:36 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> avtar: ok cool

[12:06:37 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> would you like to get started now or wait a bit?

[12:07:49 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> I dont mind waiting a bit - got a ton of other stuff to do while waiting

[12:07:53 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> but either way works for me

[12:11:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> kasper, avtar: Sorry, subway delays. I'm here now

[12:11:39 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> no worries

[12:11:41 CDT(-0500)] <avtar> i'll dial

[12:16:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv, anastasiac, fluid-everyone: i updated the Testing section of this wiki page http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Research+the+viability+of+using+icon+fonts+in+UI+Options

[12:17:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> to add a Test obstacle course list, which contains the things we'd want to create a test instance of. Is there anything else you'd like to see tested

[12:17:27 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> I didn't bother to add things like scalability and change colours since we already know that will work

[12:18:08 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o takin' a look

[12:20:51 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o for hover etc we should also try swapping the icon w a diff icon? i wonder if we'd ever do that...

[12:21:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jvass, arashs" ^

[12:22:56 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> heidiv: I'm not sure what you mean

[12:23:45 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> arashs when you hover over an icon, it's replaced by a diff icon

[12:24:55 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> ooh I see, good point, Justin_o can we include that in the testing?

[12:25:27 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs, heidiv: sure

[12:26:32 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> great, thanks Justin_o

[12:30:14 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o would you want to test an IE workaround here?

[12:30:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: probably, but we don't have one yet

[12:31:09 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o but we will come test time?

[12:31:41 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: have you spoken with clown about the presentational icons yet?

[12:31:58 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o he's going to get back to me with a good time to chat this week

[12:31:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: the first pass at the test page might not yet include it, but it should be there before we make a decision

[12:32:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: cool, thanks

[12:32:13 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o cool, maybe good to add to the list then

[12:32:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> anastasiac suggested aria-hidden for the header icons (see FLUID-4934) which i think is ok for that case

[12:33:15 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> will still have to figure out hiding the 'A's in the contrast labels, but that's not a font icon thing

[12:33:57 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: i'm not sure that aria-hidden is appropriate as i think it is supposed to be on elements that are also visibly hidden

[12:34:11 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o yes, typically. check the jira comments.

[12:36:09 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> i wonder about using it for the contrast "A"s - would it be weird to choose one and hear "black on white" vs "A" ? i'm thinking, not that weird...

[12:36:41 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> since there's obv more going on in that label (colours) than the letter A

[12:37:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: agreed, i think it would be better to hear the description than "A"

[12:39:08 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o even for someone who is not blind, but uses a screen reader, it still seems ok, right?

[12:39:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> if you were looking at that label and heard "black on white" vs "A" , it almost makes more sense?

[12:39:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidiv: i think so, but it might be something we'd need to user test to be sure.

[12:40:55 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> Justin_o totes

[12:49:13 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> EricDalquist: I understand you're responsible for JASIGLogBot. How do we setup a copy for one of our channels on oftc.net

[12:49:29 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> yes

[12:50:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> greggy1: EricDalquist has been very kind to donate the log bot's attention in our channel

[12:52:30 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> colinclark: EricDalquist: is the bot available to be setup on the atutor channel on oftc.net?

[12:52:51 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> what is the channel for?

[12:53:02 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> so far we are only using the bot for jasig and related open source projects

[12:53:29 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> its for ATutor, another IDRC project

[12:54:01 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> sure .... I'm about to start a 2 hour sprint planning meeting

[12:54:10 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> can you poke me again after 3pm central time

[12:54:17 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> and we can work on getting it setup?

[12:54:58 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> EricDalquist: great, thanks! if not later today, then perhaps tomorrow.

[13:50:18 CDT(-0500)] <vaibhav22> Hello

[14:54:13 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: Hi, are you mentoring storyboarder for GSoC2013?

[15:02:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: hello

[15:02:25 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_:how's it going.. sorry i didn't have a chance to talk to you before and i'm about to leave today too but i can chat with you about the GSoC project for a few minutes

[15:04:01 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: I'm fine, just wanted to know are you mentoring this project for GSoc? If yes, then please provide me some more details about it.

[15:06:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: yes.. i'll probably be one of the mentors on this project.. what would you like to know about it?

[15:07:43 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> As I told you before I have worked on transcription of videos, So wanted to know about how would a transcript of a video with both visuals and captions will be created?

[15:08:35 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> would it be automated or manual?

[15:11:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: the text portion you could expect to be manually created, while the images would be created automatically.. if you also have a way to create the text automatically that would be good too, but not exactly the focus of the project

[15:13:53 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: So the images created automatically would be taken from the video at particular interval? And how the user will see to them (in terms of UI and UX)?

[15:14:34 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Overall what would be the main focus of the project?

[15:15:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: yes.. to the first part.. for the second part there I don't think we have anything set in stone.. I guess part of the project will be to come up with a design, although someone from here might work on that with you… but you'd probably have something like a timecode, a still image and the specific transcript text together and in a readable manner

[15:16:14 CDT(-0500)] <system64> Afternoon colinclark

[15:16:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Hey system64, how's it going

[15:16:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ?

[15:16:32 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: the main focus is to be able to provide a tool that can be run in a web browser that allows a user to request this enhanced transcript and have the video transformed into it

[15:17:33 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: hello, cindyli and I were hoping to get some clarification on how we should approach FLUID-4927.. do we want to try to basically just split out the transformation config into a new grade, or should we be aiming for IoCSS style. Also what were your thoughts on backwards compatability

[15:18:22 CDT(-0500)] <system64> colinclark: Kind of confused, which project to apply for? I think the web audio one is challenging, and is going to be good learning curve for me.

[15:18:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> cool

[15:18:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> they're both pretty great projects

[15:18:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> How can I help with the decision?

[15:18:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - we should try to ensure total backward compatibility if we possibly can

[15:18:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I believe it's okay for you to apply for both if you wanted

[15:19:08 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: Pretty much clearer with the idea. Thanks a lot for your help and time.

[15:19:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - I believe it should be possible, unless we run into some expected problem

[15:19:16 CDT(-0500)] <system64> colinclark: As I mentioned before, I have worked on similar project like WebRTC collaboration project.

[15:19:47 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: no problem… let me know if you have any more questions.. i'm usually around earlier in the day

[15:20:06 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: anything you want me to start with towards this idea?

[15:20:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> system64: Yes, right. That sounds really cool.

[15:20:11 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: how would we be able to support the old transformation config style at the same time as the new IoCSS stuff

[15:20:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - the point is whether we go with IoCSS or not, the component can and should accept the same configuration

[15:20:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The purpose of IoCSS was to replace the crummy "manual options mapping" machinery inside UIOptions

[15:21:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But its purpose was to do essentially the same job - directing "flat" configuration into a "pointy" world

[15:22:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: there are a few things you might want to start looking at in some order 1) you would be expected to use our Fluid Infusion framework to create your application, so becoming familiar with this would be a good idea 2) you might want to start investigating how to grab stills from a video file in the browser 3) come up with a preliminary design for how you'd like to present the transcript with images to the user

[15:22:33 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: yes, but the directives are themselves quite different

[15:22:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes, they are

[15:22:52 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But it was never the expectation that the user would supply the directives

[15:23:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> They would just supply the options which the directives relate to

[15:23:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> At least in the new world we imagine a new class of "integrator grade" user COULD supply the directives

[15:23:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the "old UIO" the work of this "integrator grade" user was impossible, so we don't consider compatibility questions for them

[15:23:43 CDT(-0500)] <system64> colinclark: I think I'll prefer the WebRTC project, I think I can do it better. Can you tell me more about the project?

[15:23:48 CDT(-0500)] <adeon_> Justin_o: Great, will start with using Fluid Infusion framework. Thanks again

[15:23:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> system64: Sure

[15:24:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think the key point is that, as you know from your project, WebRTC is suddenly quite a viable technology

[15:24:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It now ships in Firefox beta and in Chrome, so we'll have two solid implementations

[15:24:33 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> adeon_: no problem.. let us know if you have questions about infusion.. you should be able to ask just about anyone on this channel about it… the documentation is on our wiki http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/docs/Infusion+Documentation

[15:24:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: might have some recommendations on good places to start

[15:24:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> And I think it has the potential to hugely disrupt current video/audio conferencing technology

[15:24:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> such as Adobe Connect and Skype

[15:25:27 CDT(-0500)] <system64> Yes, I have always loved the world with flash

[15:25:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: so i'm not sure i'm totally clear on what we want to do..

[15:25:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> A World Without Flash!

[15:26:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Anyway, a tool like Adobe Connect has always caused a lot of accessibility problems for a variety of people

[15:26:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: does this mean that it's okay to scrap the current .something..something: something style in favour of the IoCSS stuff

[15:26:11 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> ?

[15:26:13 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "FLASHLOS" as our Teutonic colleagues might say

[15:26:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's difficult to use with a screen reader, for example

[15:26:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes it does, assuming we can make it work

[15:26:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and it's difficult to use entirely with a keyboard

[15:26:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and it doesn't adapt well to larger and smaller screens, etc.

[15:26:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So what I would like to see, for this project, is that a student builds a WebRTC-based conferencing tool

[15:27:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> That is fully screen reader and keyboard friendly

[15:27:15 CDT(-0500)] <system64> Sure! Responsive application can solve that.

[15:27:19 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay.. cindyli and i were having some difficulty when we were trying to do some of the grade merging into fluid.uiOptions.inline presumably because it isn't autoInit and has its own creator functions

[15:27:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and that can be integrated with some simple collaboration tools

[15:27:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> perhaps such as Etherpad

[15:27:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Or an accessible chat tool

[15:27:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes, removing the manual init would be a big part of this work, once we take it on

[15:27:48 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> although basic grade merging or only top level options seemed okay

[15:27:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> or other ways of collaborating, beyond just audio or video

[15:28:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - but from what I was hearing yesterday from michelled, it sounded like we wanted this immediate round of merging to have more modest ambitions

[15:28:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Does that make sense, system64?

[15:28:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay, so for now we'll do the minimum. which might mean just keeping the same config mapping syntax

[15:28:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm happy to keep it fairly open-ended, in terms of exactly what will be done, system64

[15:28:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> As long as we make something that is usable and broadly accessible

[15:29:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - yes, that's fine - as long as we at least manage to put it somewhere else

[15:29:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It needs to go into some kind of grade that the users of the new UIO can opt out of

[15:29:29 CDT(-0500)] <system64> Sounds good! Could you tell me about the integration part? How you plan to integrate third party tools?

[15:29:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And we will say that anyone who makes new panels will use "pointy configuration" for now

[15:29:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: cool.. i think we might also have to resort to having two grades 1) for fluid.uiOptions.inline defaults 2) for the default settingsPanels

[15:29:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> system64: I guess that's up to the developer...

[15:29:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> in the simplest form, it might the iFrame-based

[15:29:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay

[15:30:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o - that sounds reasonable

[15:30:08 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: cool thanks

[15:30:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> or we might come up with a more robust scheme for embedding, say, EtherPad or a collaborative code editor such as CodeMirror right in the conferencing tool

[15:30:40 CDT(-0500)] <system64> colinclark: I was thinking of doing something like etherpad as part of the project

[15:30:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> cool

[15:35:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I was just thinking that, with our "modest ambitions" for getting code into master, we should always remember to file JIRAs for the stuff that still needs to be done

[15:35:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but I'm probably pointing out the obvious

[15:36:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: i suppose there could also be something missing from this https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/blob/master/src/webapp/components/uiOptions/js/UIOptions.js#L243-L265

[15:36:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: hope so, although we may have to do it now anyways

[15:37:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ok

[15:37:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: i have to run, but if you have any thoughts please let me know…