fluid-work IRC Logs-2013-04-18

[05:44:28 CDT(-0500)] <Ankatern> Hello! Help me, please. With whom i can talk about idea for GSOC 2013: Plugins for infusion components?

[09:00:17 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: did you look at this site yet, i think they are down for maintenance at the moment though http://www.fontsquirrel.com/tools/webfont-generator

[09:04:10 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> Justin_o Looks familiar, but I don't have it added to the list of our links in the JIRA

[09:04:53 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: also i tried opening the svg file that came from icomoon but it looks blank.. Am I doing something wrong?

[09:05:41 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> It does not seem to give us many options with "icons"

[09:05:46 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> let me check

[09:06:09 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: thanks

[09:10:31 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: would you be able to send me individual svg files for each of the icons we used in the obstacle course

[09:10:40 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i can send you the zip you created for me

[09:11:13 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> Justin_o: the spade and club icon?

[09:11:26 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: yes, and i guess the smiley and sad face too

[09:14:15 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> Justin_o: there is something wrong with the sag file in the icomoon package, I just tried a new one and it is not working

[09:15:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: (sad) that's too bad

[09:15:45 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> not a big deal, we can easily convert them to svg

[09:16:37 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: cool.. i'm going to be making a new test page to try them out as svg's instead of font icons.. would you be able to provide me with individual svg's for each of those icons

[09:17:07 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> yes

[09:17:17 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> so we had 4 icons right? Justin_o

[09:18:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: yes.. which file do you need.. i have linked the ttf to our wiki page if that helps

[09:20:10 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> I found it Justin_o thanks

[09:20:21 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: great

[10:19:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So how did the icon font discussion go yesterday, Justin_o, michelled, arashs?

[10:19:20 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> Justin_o: do you want to include a multi-tone icon to the set?

[10:19:48 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: um.. hmm. sure

[10:20:43 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark: it went really well

[10:20:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: I think it went well overall… there are a couple things left to test.. i should probably send out a summary of the meeting today… anyways.. Bosmon suggested we test out svg and compare them to font icons

[10:21:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> the wiki page is being updated http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Research+the+viability+of+using+icon+fonts+in+UI+Options

[10:22:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Can you tell me more?

[10:27:39 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: if you look at the bottom of that page you can see the extra questions to answer comparing svg to font icons

[10:29:41 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> colinclark Johnny shared examples of icons being stacked, and the idea of mixing them together

[10:29:53 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> here are the links he shared

[10:30:01 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> http://conor.cc/posts/icon-stacks

[10:30:09 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> http://conor.cc/posts/textured-icons-with-icon-stacks

[11:23:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> cindyli: i'm also getting tests failing randomly from time to time, and they've been different ones each time so far

[11:38:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Hey Justin_o and arashs, do you have a quick sec to chat with me here about the icon fonts

[11:38:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ?

[11:38:54 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: sure

[11:38:57 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> yes

[11:39:08 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i'm writing up the e-mail to the list as we speak too

[11:39:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Great

[11:39:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I find myself still asking two questions that I think are at the heart of the whole issue

[11:39:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and perhaps you two will be able to answer them

[11:39:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> They go something like this;

[11:40:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> "We will use icon fonts when…"

[11:40:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and

[11:40:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> "Icon fonts won't be a suitable solution when…"

[11:41:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> My sense, from your JIRA, wiki page, test results, and so on, is that icon fonts aren't a "universal" solution

[11:41:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: to be clear we didn't decide on using vs. not using icon fonts at the meeting.. we are still carrying that forward to the mailing list

[11:41:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> right

[11:41:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> But my question has to do with the very notion of "using"

[11:41:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Presumably, if they aren't a universal solution, there are cases where we think they might be used

[11:42:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and other cases where we know they won't be appropriate

[11:42:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm not sure I've heard anyone summarize a proposal yet for "appropriateness"

[11:43:12 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: my personal general recommendation if we decide to use icon fonts was this. We should use the PUA versions and in cases where we need it, we link a text alternative (e.g. aria-label).

[11:45:04 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> colinclark: can you explain more on what you mean by universal solution?

[11:45:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> arashs: Yes

[11:45:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I mean, would we want to replace every image in every website or web application we create with icon fonts instead?

[11:47:01 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> right...

[11:48:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: I think I totally agree with you in regards to avoiding ligatures entirely and using text alternatives

[11:48:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I am actually increasingly coming to think that ligature-based icons will end up being a step back for accessibility, in many practical cases

[11:49:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> since people are forced to use a single word to describe an icon, despite the fact that there may be many cases where that's just not sufficient

[11:49:09 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> I see your point colinclark

[11:49:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm thinking, say, of those weather icons that Johnny pointed to (which you passed along, arashs)

[11:49:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Imagine those in a mobile weather app...

[11:49:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> clearly they're more than presentational

[11:49:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> they tell you, "at a glance" what the weather forecast is

[11:49:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so they'd need to be paired with a similar "at a glance" text alternative

[11:50:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which presumably would be really hard to convey in one word (smile)

[11:51:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So it sounds like there's some general agreement that we should use PUA icon fonts and find a viable, cross-AT means for providing labels when they are not solely presentational in nature

[11:51:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> the question still is "When should I use an icon font?"

[11:51:23 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: the issues we came up with for the ligatures were 1) hard to localize 2) may need more that 1 word to describe 3) browser support 4) may have an icon that is used for different per poses in different cases (e.g. undo vs reset vs back etc.)

[11:52:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> That sounds like a pretty good summary

[11:52:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> of the issue of ligatures

[11:52:35 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yep

[11:53:07 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: as for standard images vs icon fonts, some on the fly thinking

[11:53:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> if you don't need it to scale or change colors or don't want that to happen you'd probably not want them

[11:54:10 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> if we use SVG icons, we would resolve some of the aesthetic issues

[11:54:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> also for things that are highly complex, for example a photograph

[11:54:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The "not scaling" issue seems unlikely for almost any kind of non-raster image in a site designed to be high-dpi friendly and responsive

[11:54:39 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: what is the aesthetic issue?

[11:55:09 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> pixelation, for example

[11:55:09 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yes.. pretty unlikely.. but i think for things that you can easily do in css already you wouldn't want to either, since those already scale as well

[11:55:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Okay, right. So we know that we wouldn't want to use icon fonts for things that aren't "illustrated"--i.e. photographs and the like

[11:55:29 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: for example the thumbs on the slider are just divs made to look round

[11:55:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Right, okay

[11:56:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so we've got a set of interrelated techniques emerging

[11:56:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: you mean rasterized vs svg or font icon vs svg

[11:56:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> You're saying, I think, that above if you can do a particular technique purely in CSS, that's the base case scenario

[11:56:40 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> font icons vs svg Justin_o

[11:57:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and then there's a category of images that just aren't really germane to this issue (i.e. photographs, which we'd simply need multiple versions at different resolutions to make them respond well)

[11:57:23 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yes and complexity has to be taken into account too.. since you could probably draw just about anything with css and markup if you really wanted too (smile) http://html5watch.tumblr.com/post/742531312/ios-icons-made-in-pure-css-amazing-work-and-a

[11:57:34 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> If we are not going to use ligatures, why not just use SVG

[11:58:07 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: i didn't notice the pixelation issue with the font icons.. shouldn't the fact that they are scalable prevent that

[11:59:00 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> oh, I meant rasterized vs svg Justin_o

[11:59:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Let's try to unreel this whole issue a bit

[11:59:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> starting away from the specific technology

[12:00:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So we think there is a category of things that we currently deliver as images, which would benefit from being represented differently

[12:00:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> i.e. in a vector format so that it can scale to different screen sizes and resolutions

[12:00:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and in a format that can be "re-colourized" on the fly

[12:01:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> What's the nature of these kinds of images?

[12:01:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> How far does it go?

[12:01:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Icons, surely, like those in the Video Player for example

[12:01:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Logos?

[12:01:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Educational illustrations, say?

[12:01:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Drawings of polar bears or burritos?

[12:02:43 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> I think we are limited to icons

[12:02:53 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i think there is a distinction between want and possible.. for example in reality we'd want everything to be scalable

[12:02:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> right

[12:03:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so tell me a bit more about "possible," then, Justin_o

[12:03:11 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> can we, or do we want to change a colour of frowings?

[12:03:30 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> drawings ^

[12:03:40 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: in terms of re-colourizing in may be technically possible, but not necessarily desirable.. for example a companies branding

[12:04:04 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: probably depends on the application (smile) but generally not i'd guess..

[12:04:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yup, that's exactly the question I asked, arashs

[12:04:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I see your point, Justin_o; keep going

[12:04:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark, arashs: slight distraction but you can take a rasterized image into a canvas element and change it's colours, so if you wanted to make drawing app or editor you'd want those things..

[12:04:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay, back on topic (smile)

[12:05:50 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think there is a question of complexity.. the size of the vector will grow as the shape information it contains becomes more complex

[12:06:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> at some point it won't be feasible just in terms of file size

[12:06:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's an awesome tangent--we could use image processing routines or WebGL someday to do more advanced, say, contrast transformations (using the same algorithms that a desktop app would, for example)

[12:06:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, that's a good point

[12:06:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Probably we don't have any firm criteria for that, just "be reasonable"

[12:06:56 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: http://studios.fluidproject.org/?p=441 can't remember where the demo is for this

[12:06:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> what else?

[12:07:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> oh yes, that's right!

[12:07:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yes probably that's it.. we do have some size info that arash gathered in regards to the fonts. This is what i have in my e-mail so far for that "The more complex the icon the larger the size. In typical fonts individual characters are usually less that 1KB and the whole family around 100KB. Our font-icons are usually less that 5KB each. "

[12:08:05 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> but if you are replacing a general image, as long as it's smaller that should be fine

[12:08:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool

[12:08:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Has anyone tried looking at any of our UIO-enabled sites or applications...

[12:09:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and said "this would be good as an icon font" and "this wouldn't work" and things like that?

[12:09:34 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i can't remember where i read it this morning now. I was reading up on svg's and the author was saying how his were bigger than the rasters, but if the raster was very large in terms of resolution then the opposite would be true.. nothing too surprising there

[12:09:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i don't think so

[12:10:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It might be an interesting exercise if we feel like it's not quite clear when we'd use these

[12:10:12 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://demo.floeproject.org/integration-demos/uiOptions/ClimateChange.html

[12:10:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> this page for example

[12:10:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The reason I asked Bosmon to bring up the question of SVG was, in large part, not because I thought it was a viable replacement for icon fonts, but because I wondered if it would be a suitable complement

[12:11:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Yup, even that page would be good. Might be worth having a peek at OER Commons to see a more complex example, too

[12:11:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: in my brief experience looking at it this morning.. i think it would be a complement in terms of things that are complex and need to have many colours, and you don't want to change those colours

[12:12:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So you really can't change the colours of an SVG image?

[12:12:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I am very surprised by this

[12:12:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: not in an svg linked as an image

[12:12:24 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> but you can if you embed the markup

[12:12:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> aha

[12:12:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes

[12:12:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and why would anyone do the former?

[12:12:45 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: easier to work with

[12:12:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> how so?

[12:12:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> doesn't bloat your markup

[12:12:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> interesting

[12:13:06 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'll pastie an example

[12:13:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yeah, I can imagine

[12:13:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> in the end, I guess, bloated markup with less repeated roundtrips to the server for images might well be faster in production

[12:13:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> though far less fun from the perspective of coding

[12:13:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: actually the opposite is true

[12:13:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and perhaps a risk in terms of the "swapability" of images

[12:13:57 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> here's the pastie example

[12:13:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://pastie.org/7646944

[12:14:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: embedded svg isn't cached, where as the linked svgs are

[12:14:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> This must be an image exported from Illustrator (tongue)

[12:14:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> aha

[12:14:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> fascinating

[12:14:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it makes sense

[12:14:50 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yes, and truth be told there are some optimizers we could probably use easily to make this a bit more manageable

[12:14:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So I think you've just answered arashs's question from a few minutes ago (smile)

[12:15:15 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> yes (smile)

[12:15:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> (smile) that's good.. feels like progress

[12:15:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think I'm increasingly becoming clear on this

[12:16:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think it would be great to describe the sorts of images we think we can viably replace with icon fonts

[12:16:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> just briefly

[12:16:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> perhaps summarizing this chat (smile)

[12:16:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Beyond that, if we think we have a viable way to label them when it's appropriate, I think I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of using icon fonts

[12:18:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: cool.. still some more research to be done on that. heidiv has started working on an example page to showcase some options… that will probably be done next week

[12:18:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I imagine we're basically saying "Icon fonts are useful for relatively simple images that can be viably represented using one colour (or a few if we find that the stacking technique works) and which likely need to be highly responsive to resolution, size, and colour thumbing changes on the fly."

[12:19:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> And "For complex images, icon fonts are not likely appropriate. The use of SVG or multiple resolution-optimized raster images is preferred in these cases."

[12:19:20 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: one other thing i have to look into more is that my PUA icons weren't being displayed in IE8 even though they are supposed to work there. If i statically add then they were fine, so probably had to do with the way i was injecting them, or could be an issue with jQuery.

[12:19:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ah

[12:19:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> fascinating

[12:19:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and slightly terrifying (smile)

[12:20:03 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> (smile)

[12:20:12 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: good summary, and yes.. slightly terrifying…

[12:20:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> okay, well

[12:20:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> nice conversation

[12:20:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> you all are doing a good job with this

[12:20:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: you're free to look at my javascript, i didn't spend much time on making it very good..so hopefully just something on my end

[12:20:48 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> good summery colinclark

[12:20:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: thanks

[12:21:10 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> thanks colinclark

[12:21:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think it would be cool if someone wrote a blog post about our perspectives on icon fonts and accessibility once we're done this research

[12:21:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think people would find it informative

[12:21:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm going to head back to the boat and hope it doesn't rain on my paint job

[12:21:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> But I will be working all day tomorrow

[12:21:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: that's a good idea.. something i wanted to get out of this was something we could use to help others who may also want to explore this

[12:22:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: good luck

[12:22:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, exactly

[12:22:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm quite worried about the "one word ligature" problem

[12:22:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's the equivalent to grunting to our users

[12:22:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> like a rude waiter or something

[12:22:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> One word is rarely an "equivalent alternative"

[12:22:36 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> (smile)

[12:22:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: (smile) in some cases it's fine like "play", "stop" but i can see how that will only go so far

[12:22:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yup, exactly

[12:23:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> okay, have a great day everyone!

[12:23:25 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> I tried closed captioning and text to speech

[12:23:40 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: you too

[12:23:40 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> and to be honest, it sounds fine

[12:24:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> how could you write those using ligatures, arashs?

[12:24:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> arashs: you mean you did "closedcaptioning"

[12:24:10 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> texttospeech

[12:24:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> oh

[12:24:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> that won't work for lots of phrases

[12:24:36 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> i can imagine...

[12:24:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> also if we turn the icon off and make it a regular font it won't be readable visually

[12:24:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and pretty terrible for someone who is sighted but, say, wants alternatives to images

[12:25:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jinx, Justin_o (smile)

[12:25:09 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> lol

[12:25:12 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> (smile)

[12:25:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> okay, see you all

[12:25:34 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> bye

[12:25:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> phone me if anything comes up

[12:25:42 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> bye

[13:10:14 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o: what are your thought on fluid.tabs now that we are no longer using them for UIO?

[13:10:25 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> do you think we should add them to the list of things we need to create demos for?

[13:12:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled: maybe, i think it was really just a component that was needed to support uio fat panel, so we could also thing of dropping it

[13:12:22 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I wonder if we documented it - do you know anastasiac?

[13:12:36 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I don't think so, but let me check

[13:13:28 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> no, there's no actual documentation for the tabs component, michelled and Justin_o

[13:15:11 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> if we are not using it anywhere else, we might want to think of dropping it.

[13:15:42 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> it really doesn't do much anyway

[13:15:53 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled, anastasiac: it would be good if we had a generic jQuery UI wrapper component that we could drop any of their widgets into.. or have a way to use them directly in IoC

[13:15:56 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: ^

[13:18:14 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> yeah, that would be good Justin_o

[13:23:05 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o, anastasiac: I just put the question on list - maybe you'd like to weigh in?

[13:45:36 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> danaayotte: makeymakey has more than 12 inputs. other than the alligator clip keys on the front, it has more inputs in the back

[13:48:34 CDT(-0500)] <danaayotte> arashs: thanks! good to know

[13:50:16 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> np danaayotte

[13:57:43 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> fluid-everyone: we are going to meet now to talk about the designs for text to speech and content simplification

[13:57:52 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> if you want to be skyped in let me know

[13:58:06 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled: can you add me in please

[13:58:18 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> anastasiac, Justin_o: can we gather around jvass's machine

[13:58:23 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> me too

[13:58:35 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: okay.. i guess it's not too far for me to go (smile)

[13:58:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> yzen, cindyli: are you available?

[13:59:22 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> heidiv, jhung: are you available?

[13:59:29 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> hi michelled

[13:59:38 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> michelled: we are on skype right now, what's up ?

[13:59:40 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> yes michelled

[13:59:43 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> hey michelled

[14:00:16 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> hey, we have that meeting now that I mentioned on list about the new features we will be adding to UIO over the next little while

[14:00:25 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I think it would be good if all of you can join (smile)

[14:01:27 CDT(-0500)] <yzen> sure

[14:01:47 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> sure

[14:01:49 CDT(-0500)] <heidiv> michelled sure!

[14:01:54 CDT(-0500)] <arashs> sure

[14:01:56 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> ok

[14:29:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I forgot about the meeting

[15:34:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi, cindyli, michelled - there was a small point which got lost when the previous enactors branch got pushed....

[15:34:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I thought that the overall grade should be renamed to "enactor" rather than "enactors"

[15:34:32 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> I did that, Bosmon

[15:34:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Since it designates a single component at one time...

[15:35:01 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> don't tell me now you want the "enactors" back (wink)

[15:35:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - it's not that way in trunk!

[15:35:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/blob/master/src/webapp/components/uiOptions/js/Enactors.js

[15:35:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, I see

[15:35:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> You got my comment the wrong way round (smile)

[15:35:52 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I wanted the grade renamed, not the namespace

[15:36:00 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> ah man

[15:36:01 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> my fault

[15:36:07 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> i will re-open that jira

[15:36:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Not to worry (smile)

[15:36:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/pull/312/files

[15:36:27 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> why wouldn't the grade and namespace be consistent?

[15:36:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Here is the original PUL......

[15:37:46 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> so the missing part would be rename the grade from "enactors" to "enactor", and the namespace would stay with "enactor". is that your point, Bosmon?

[15:38:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - I think "enactors" makes sense for the namespace, since it contains many things - and "enactor" for the grade, since it designates just one thing at a time

[15:38:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> What do you think, michelled?

[15:38:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm ok with "enactor" for the namespace too

[15:39:37 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I like the idea of enactor for both

[15:41:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok

[15:42:11 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> fine with me. will work on that.

[15:42:52 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> btw, Bosmon, the pull request for FLUID-4927 is ready for more reviews, when you have a chance

[15:44:17 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> that is - https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/pull/308

[15:44:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - thanks

[15:44:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am finally starting to lose track of my 196 windows : P

[15:44:51 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> haha, congrats

[15:45:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - I'm noticing that the "double expander" is still there?

[15:45:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although I remember seeing a note that it was removed

[15:46:40 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> digging

[15:48:41 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> I do rmb i removed it. might get lost in all the branch merges. making change

[15:55:25 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: it didn't get lost, i fixed the full preview but forgot about the fat panel. now it's in and the pull request is ready to go

[15:58:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - why did the fatPanel integration tests get commented out?

[15:59:05 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: are you looking at my latest push in?

[15:59:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - yes

[15:59:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/cindyli/infusion/blob/297d99f0f1b6f83632af06cedfdcd76cbff56595/src/webapp/tests/component-tests/uiOptions/js/FatPanelUIOptionsTests.js

[15:59:46 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> This file has a large commented section at the base

[15:59:55 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> right. it has been re-written at the top

[16:00:18 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> i should have removed the commented code, which is the old tests

[16:02:52 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> done, Bosmon. good catch

[16:04:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindyli - just watching you on TV now - what an awful accident!

[16:04:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Where is your CATTT?

[16:04:44 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> you saw it? ok, my cats ran away long time ago

[16:04:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> ran away!

[16:05:02 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> i'm not a good caregiver for cats apparently

[16:05:14 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> They were probably predicting this disaster

[16:05:37 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> good point. I should have actually run together with them.

[16:05:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes (smile)

[16:05:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> How long will it take for your house to be repaired?

[16:06:56 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> was told a couple of months, but the restoration company is still waiting for city permits as there's structure damage. so they cannot give a rather accurate estimation at this point.

[16:07:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wow crikey, how terrible (sad)

[16:07:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Is the expense covered by your insurance?

[16:07:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> it is

[16:08:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> You're reminding me I need to remember to insure my house : P

[16:08:28 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> yes, but they may increase my premium next year if cannot find get hydro agree on being responsible for ti

[16:08:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Will you have to go to court for that?

[16:08:44 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> of course, how can you live in a house without an insurance

[16:09:07 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> not me, the insurance company will fight for that with hydro

[16:10:13 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, that is something

[16:10:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, my father failed to insure his caravan, and it was stolen....

[16:10:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Luckily it was not stolen when he was inside it

[16:10:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> :-D

[16:17:06 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> luckily?

[16:17:24 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> oh, 'not' I should read more closely