fluid-work IRC Logs-2009-01-30

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[10:14:43 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> hello Justin?
[10:14:55 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> hello
[10:14:56 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> how are you
[10:19:25 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I am good and you
[10:20:19 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> not too bad...
[10:20:36 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> you had some questions about testing?
[10:20:55 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I did, did you see my email?
[10:21:26 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i did... sorry i got a little busy yesterday
[10:23:20 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> would you like to talk about it now
[10:23:52 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> if you have time
[10:26:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sure... I guess I have some questions for you.... specifically.... coming out of our meeting the other day and your reading up on the wiki about some of our testing methods... did you have any area that you are interested in or have any questions about.... also what sort of things would you be interested in doing.
[10:31:30 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> sure, so infusion's 1.0 launch is happening at the end of march 31. how does the testing fit in to that
[10:32:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> a lot... we will have the 0.8 release towards the end of february... as well.... oh there is another link i should have given you... i'll send it to you here
[10:33:29 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Bug+Parade
[10:33:36 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> thanks
[10:34:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> as part of a release process we start by having a bug parade (see link above)... this is a period of time where we try to identify key issues that need to be resolved before the release occurs.
[10:35:06 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> next we take a day or so to run the test plans against the components in the various configurations....
[10:35:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> finally the release is cut and the release bundle is tested
[10:35:46 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Release+Package+QA+Test++Plan
[10:36:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> here is an example of tasks we setup for testing before the release is cut http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Release+Testing+Tasks
[10:38:28 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> From release testing tasks - looks like you've been spending some time looking at performance in various browsers
[10:39:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> we have 15 configurations that we support... ( you can see the grid on top of most of the pages that i sent you)
[10:39:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> uploader actually supports 30 configurations as we have to factor in Flash 9 and Flash 10 as well
[10:41:29 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> If you look at the browser support page you can see that, while we try to have the components perform identically across configurations, it isn't always possible. http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Browser+Support
[10:41:37 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> that page has a list of browser specific issues
[10:42:51 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I just checked that we upgraded to 1.5.3 on Dec. 9
[10:43:34 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> how do you manage workflow with this - i.e. - how do you decide what to work on first?
[10:43:35 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: so that may have fixed FLUID-1748
[10:43:47 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> yep, that's what Bosmon was speculating
[10:43:55 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> that's why I thought I'd mention it here
[10:44:12 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> alisonbenjamin: when you say what to work on first do you mean in regards to testing all of the components....
[10:44:16 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: thanks
[10:44:22 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> yes
[10:44:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> In some releases a component may not have been changed at all so we won't test this.
[10:45:12 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Usually the ones that have undergone the largest changes will gain the highest priority
[10:45:42 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> So I'll organize them into priorities... High, Medium, Low....
[10:46:03 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> A lower priority may also be assigned for a less used configuration such as windows 2000
[10:46:13 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> and mac 10.4 (tiger)
[10:46:35 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> that makes sense
[10:47:13 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> The goal is to test all priority levels, but sometimes there just isn't enough time or testers, so we will move our way down from the top and complete as much as possible
[10:47:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> in general we are usually able to get through all of the priorities
[10:47:56 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> for the 1.0 release i would imagine that all the components will need to undergo testing
[10:48:00 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> in all configurations
[10:48:44 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> by in all configurations - you mean across all browsers, and trying out all the functionalities
[10:49:48 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes... so configurations are more than just browers.. they are browsers/OS so for example FF3 would have to be run in all 5 supported OSs whereas Safari is only tested on the two Mac OSs
[10:50:36 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> so many possibilities!
[10:51:33 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes... it is quite a lot and on some of the test plans you may have noticed that there are multiple test pages... this is most significant for the uploader...
[10:53:29 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> QA is more than just testing the components specifically... although that is a large part, there is also managing the bug lists and making sure that issues are resolved. There is writing test plans. and etc...
[10:58:31 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> hmm. I worry this may be over my head. 8 weeks is a short time. my worry: By the time I've learned what I need to know, it might be too late to contribute meaningfully, since I don't know javascript - although I do want to learn it. arrg.
[11:00:15 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> you don't have to learn javascript to help with the testing, but you can feel free to if you would like to help me work on the automated testing. I actually had never done any javascript until a few months ago either and am still learning it myself...
[11:00:24 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> how do you feel about looking at test plans
[11:00:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> by that I mean writing them
[11:02:29 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> you mean, writing stuff like this: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Reorderer+QA+Test+Plan+-+Layout+Reorderer
[11:02:48 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes
[11:03:47 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I see.
[11:04:26 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> (excuse learning curve) let me guess these testing plans are made to test what a component is designed to do
[11:05:26 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> what is the protocol for coming up with testing protocols.
[11:05:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Yes that is correct... so there are sections for making sure that all the states of the component are reachable and functional... the testing the basic functionality, then edge cases, and then error situations... not all of the components will have the last section
[11:05:51 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> An examination of the design usually
[11:06:26 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I don't think that you would start off by writing a complete test plan
[11:07:06 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> probably the place to start would be to run through a test plan, testing one of the components... then making sure that it is up-to-date and accurate...
[11:07:48 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> The test plan for UI Options will likely need to be updated as the design is fleshed out.... so this may be a good place to jump in next...
[11:08:06 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> and then maybe writing a test plan for a component that hasn't been implemented yet
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[11:08:58 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I have twiddled around a bit with the UI options component.. I think I saw it on the daily build..
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[11:11:11 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes... there are two pages... and a third page you can look at for some new developments... i'll send you the links here
[11:11:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> heya everyone
[11:11:28 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> hi colin
[11:11:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> alisonbenjamin: Hey, welcome.
[11:11:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How's it going?
[11:11:56 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> this is the UI Options component: http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/fluid-components/html/templates/UIOptions.html
[11:12:05 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> @colin: good thanks
[11:12:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> this is the UI Options component integrated into a page: http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/sample-code/shared/sakai/sakai.html
[11:13:04 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> oh yeah I've seen those.
[11:13:09 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> this is an example of some new functionality being developed for ui options: http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/tests/fluid-tests/manual/toc/TableOfContents.html
[11:13:29 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> you can also look at all the FSS stuff... that is what makes the changes to the pages style
[11:13:51 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I think I've skimmed over that too
[11:14:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> that's good... so you probably have a fair understading of what the component does
[11:14:38 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> here is the big question: In terms of writing testing plans, what could I accomplish w/ in the 8 week time frame I have for this class (i.e. can you think of some spec deliverables).
[11:15:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> could you tell me what sort of thing you would like to come away with in the 8 weeks... and i'll see if i can match it up
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[11:17:46 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> well, maybe to have written testing plans, and help you test components that need to be finished by the next release (jess mentioned this release is at March 31)..
[11:18:19 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes... the march 31 is the big release... there is another one coming towards the end of february as well...
[11:18:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> for sure i think you'll be able to do all of those things within the 8 weeks...
[11:19:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I'm thinking that you'll help me verify some of the current test plans... work finish up the UI Options test plan, and maybe write a complete one from scratch by the end of 8 weeks...
[11:19:32 EST(-0500)] <jessm> alisonbenjamin: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Fluid+Project+2007-9+Project+Plan at the bottom is the Feb. 0.9 and March 1.0 release info (or what we've updated so far)
[11:19:35 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> and some testing of components along the way
[11:20:10 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> how do test plans take into account how people with assistive technologies use the components. i see that being able to use them with just a keyboard is really important.
[11:20:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> alisonbenjamin: That totally sounds like a bite-sized amount of work. A bit of testing, then tying it into together with contributions to the test plans themselves.
[11:29:02 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> alisonbenjamin: that is definitely one area. There are many areas where our components will meet the needs of AT users. In the general test plans the keyboard accessibility is emphasised as it is an issue that will cut across a majority of the users... from individuals with vision impairment using screen readers to users will mobility impairments who are unable to or prefer not to use the mouse, to users who are at terminals where there is no mouse a
[11:29:37 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> you can see a rough example of that here: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Pager+Accessibility+Test+Plan
[11:30:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> alisonbenjamin: This is one area you could really help with, even in 8 weeks. We're still working out how best to reflect accessibility concerns directly in the test plans.
[11:31:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We don't want to use QA testing a substitute for working directly with AT users, and doing lots of other kinds of testing, too
[11:31:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But we definitely want the interaction designs for things like keyboard navigation and ARIA support to be clearly reflected in the QA test plans so they don't get lost or broken during development.
[11:32:37 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> colinclark: I see what you are saying.
[11:33:40 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> broadly: keyboard nav & ARIA support should be tested a bit before testing with AT users?
[11:34:24 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> I hope I am being articulate about this - am trying to figure out how AT fits together w/ testing.
[11:36:06 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes... we would like to be able to have the mechanics working so that the AT user can focus on more fundamental issues...
[11:36:24 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> i see
[11:37:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> for example Everett was using our inline edit component and while it did announce the component, the role that is applied to it, wasn't entirely clear appropriate to him...
[11:38:35 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> ok. Well this is a "bite-sized chunk" that sounds interesting to me. How does this sound: I write a short proposal for steve & then send it to you folks for your approval.
[11:39:19 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> that sounds good to me. colinclark what do you think?
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[11:40:07 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> in the proposal I would outline some of the things we've talked about (finishing up UI Options test plan, verifying some current test plans, maybe doing another one from scratch)
[11:40:35 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> alisonbenjamin: That sounds great. +1
[11:40:49 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> justin_o: what are some of the current test plans needing to be verified ?
[11:40:55 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin and I will be happy to take a look at your proposal.
[11:41:45 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> colinclark, justin_o: I will get a draft to you on Tuesday @ latest - I am working on a giant paper this weekend.
[11:41:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Sounds good.
[11:42:38 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> alisonbenjamin: would you need a list of specific test plans to verify?
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[11:43:45 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> that would help give the proposal some cred - steve is easygoing, but wants to make sure we're not (a) getting in over our heads; or (b) doing something to small
[11:45:20 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay... that makes sense.. do you mind if I take a look and send you something in an e-mail
[11:49:20 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> that would be great justin.
[11:49:26 EST(-0500)] <alisonbenjamin> thanks
[11:49:40 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I'll should have something to you by the end of the day...
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[12:03:22 EST(-0500)] <clown> Justin_o: FYI, I have a solution to the unit test problem of looping through a number of items, and wanting to test each "the same way".
[12:03:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> really... what did you come up with
[12:04:46 EST(-0500)] <clown> Alas, I cannot claim credit. I saw it in one of dojo's test file. DIfficult to describe; better to show.
[12:05:02 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay... do you have time for me to come over now
[12:05:35 EST(-0500)] <clown> sure
[12:05:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> thanks
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[13:25:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> hey ecochran.
[13:26:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How's it going?
[13:26:12 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> howdy
[13:26:13 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> going
[13:26:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool.
[13:26:20 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> working on this pause bug with Ray
[13:26:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's awesome. Any progress?
[13:26:34 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> slow
[13:26:43 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> it's hard to see inside the SWF
[13:26:48 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> so we're debugging around it
[13:26:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm thinking of taking some time today to get my Gears code out of this branch.
[13:26:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool
[13:27:02 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> that would be cool
[13:27:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The FLUID-1673 branch is really starting to rot
[13:27:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I expect it will be a bit hairy.
[13:27:18 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> hmmm, yes
[13:27:21 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Do you have any outstanding code to commit, or am I free to play around?
[13:27:24 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> not as rotten as you think
[13:27:29 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> no nothing
[13:27:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> great
[13:27:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Wish me luck, then.
[13:27:46 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> everything that I have outstanding is a bunch of ugly temp debug statements
[13:27:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[13:28:27 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> FYI, the crux of what we're trying to do is to figure out who is not returning the correct error
[13:28:35 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> is the JAVA getting stuck
[13:28:37 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> the SWF
[13:28:43 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> or the upload.js
[13:29:11 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I think that we're close
[13:29:46 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> colinclark: ^
[13:39:03 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: Cool. My theory is still that it's the flash movie, but I'll be glad to see the proof either way.
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[17:31:49 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> colinclark: I was wrong earlier, the problem definitely appears to be in the SWF
[17:32:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: Cool.
[17:32:33 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> when the upload is stopped, the file gets "cancelled" then requeued
[17:32:39 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> but the requeue is wack
[17:33:01 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> or at least that's how it seems to me
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[17:34:44 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Ray, also points out that the server is sending back the file success message which the SWF swallows and doesn't pass on to the JS because the file was previously canceled (or because the upload has been stopped, I haven't figured out which). So we can't do anything with the success message even if we wanted to.
[17:35:40 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> There is a potentially messy fix for this... which would be to wait until the current file successfully uploads before stopping the upload cycle. Not a big deal if the files are small, really nasty if the files are large. What do you think
[17:35:47 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> colinclark: ^
[17:36:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: One thing you may want to do is take a look at the latest SWFUpload beta and see if they've changed any of the pause or queueing code between b3 and b4.
[17:36:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Just in case they bothered to fix something.
[17:36:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Waiting until the file has finished uploading is pretty non-ideal.
[17:37:05 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Do you have the .as file for beta 3? I only have beta 4 and beta 3 is no longer available on the site
[17:37:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: There's a tag for it in their repository.
[17:37:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> actually
[17:38:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> they seemed to skip tagging b3
[17:38:06 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I'll go look again... thought that they
[17:38:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> let me see what they've got here
[17:38:08 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> ... yes
[17:38:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> interestingly, they've got a tag here for b5
[17:38:36 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> ooo
[17:38:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> which, as of yesterday, wasn't on their site
[17:39:35 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> i've got the source for both beta 3 and 4 here
[17:39:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> i'll send them along
[17:39:46 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> or is there a jira issue?
[17:39:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> i could just attach the zip to the jira
[17:42:36 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> FLUID-822
[17:42:41 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> colinclark: ^
[17:49:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/ManageAttachments.jspa?id=10854
[17:49:26 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> thank you much!
[17:49:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It is an utter disgrace that we have to go combing through their code to figure out what got fixed.
[17:51:00 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I'm trying to think of a witty rejoinder, but you know... it's just a disgrace, you hit it
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