fluid-work IRC Logs-2009-01-21

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Last updated: Jan 21, 2009Version comment
12 min read

[01:12:26 EST(-0500)] * lessthanzero (n=lessthan@74.13.33.37) has joined #fluid-work
[07:38:15 EST(-0500)] * phiggins (n=dante@c-68-34-199-67.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[07:55:11 EST(-0500)] * michelled (n=michelle@CPE001310472ade-CM0011aefd3ca8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fluid-work
[08:02:57 EST(-0500)] * Justin_o (n=Justin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[08:09:05 EST(-0500)] * laurelw (n=Laurel@142.150.154.178) has joined #fluid-work
[08:16:08 EST(-0500)] * Justin_o_ (n=Justin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[08:31:35 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: when you have a chance I would like to talk to you about making a test plan for UI Options
[08:32:07 EST(-0500)] <michelled> sure. I think it makes sense to talk to gary too
[08:32:21 EST(-0500)] <michelled> he has new mockups and is continuing to work on the design
[08:32:40 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay.... should I wait to talk to you both together...
[08:32:48 EST(-0500)] <michelled> but we certainly need a test plan. I just opened this: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-2151
[08:34:17 EST(-0500)] <michelled> the test plan for UI Options will also be testing a lot of FSS
[08:35:46 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay...
[08:36:12 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> FSS is the effects of the changes made in UI Options
[08:36:37 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[08:36:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> so a test would be something like make the font courier (UI Options) and the result (FSS)
[08:36:51 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> something like that?
[08:37:16 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[08:37:46 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> it may be hard to report bugs to the correct component UI Options or FSS
[08:38:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i.e. if the font doesn't change, did ui options not tell fss to change or did the fss not work
[08:38:47 EST(-0500)] <michelled> it probably doesn't matter all that much. Although we currently use the term FSS to only describe the CSS I think it will soon become an umbrella term that includes UI Options
[08:39:08 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay... so everything would end up being filed against FSS
[08:40:03 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes and some things would be against both FSS and UI Options. Think how 'rich text inline edit' bugs may be filed - against 'Inline Edit' and 'Rich Text Inline Edit'
[08:40:16 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay....
[08:40:58 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I think it would be fine to file the bugs against UI Options. The developer who is fixing the bug and change the component if it's not correct.
[08:42:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay... I'll might point to both filters then on the test plan so that people will be less likely to file duplicates. (they probably don't check those filters anyways though) (sad)
[08:42:51 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> as for the pages.. there are currently two examples... am i correct in assuming that they are identical with the exception that the mock-up just shows it in context
[08:45:11 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[08:45:14 EST(-0500)] <michelled> which is important
[08:46:06 EST(-0500)] <michelled> probably more important then the out of context one. Currently the mockup uses ajax to pull in the template so they are identical.
[08:47:07 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> is this how an implementor is intended to use ui options or just something we are doing for the example?
[08:48:03 EST(-0500)] <michelled> that's a good question and one we haven't answered yet. in some ways it makes sense to only load the component if the user wants to use it so ajax is a good idea.
[08:48:38 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I think there is also the possibility of using the renderer herer
[08:49:08 EST(-0500)] <michelled> this is something I should talk about with Boz
[08:49:40 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> that would be a nice integration
[08:50:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i was thinking it would be nice to have it drop down from the top of the screen in a bar, something like the ribbon in Office 2007, not sure if that would be visible enough though
[08:50:20 EST(-0500)] <michelled> there is also the possibility that the integrator will want the UI Options component to always be visible - like in a portlet or something. then likely the server would pull in the template itself and send over the entire page at load time
[08:50:53 EST(-0500)] <michelled> hmmm... I've never used 'the ribbon'.
[08:51:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i'll see if i can send you a picture
[08:51:16 EST(-0500)] <michelled> it wouldn't hurt to suggest to gary.
[08:51:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay....
[08:51:50 EST(-0500)] * laurelw1 (n=Laurel@142.150.154.178) has joined #fluid-work
[08:52:13 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i'm wondering about the portlet integration ... would that mean that the integrator can have the option of only including what features they want... for example.. maybe they want to be able to have the font change, but not the theme... can they keep the theme section from being displayed
[08:53:16 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes, but that hasn't been tested yet.
[08:53:41 EST(-0500)] <michelled> so possibly not at the moment but that is the intended use - configurability.
[08:54:02 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> here is some info on the office 2007 UI http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/HA101679411033.aspx
[08:54:08 EST(-0500)] <michelled> thx
[08:54:11 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> np.
[08:54:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> do you see the mock-up staying in the sakai example or moving to uportal or both
[08:54:44 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> this is in regards to our demo
[08:55:02 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> O
[08:55:04 EST(-0500)] <michelled> both
[08:55:15 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay thanks
[08:55:54 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> I'm trying to decide if I should try to make one test plan that is more general and not so specific like, click button x, but maybe something like open the UI options dialog and do this
[08:56:10 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> or if i should make individual test plans per page
[08:57:07 EST(-0500)] <michelled> so the way the component is built the markup is theoretically interchangable. Again, I haven't yet tested this and I think right now radio buttons are expected but this is easily changeable. We should be able to do both a ribbon like interface and the current interface.
[08:57:46 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I think you're better off making a single general test plan
[08:57:55 EST(-0500)] <michelled> less maintenance on the test plan.
[08:58:14 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> that's what i was leaning towards... just wanted to make sure i wasn't the only person who thought that would be a better idea
[08:58:18 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> thanks...
[08:58:23 EST(-0500)] <michelled> np
[08:59:31 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> so i was looking over some of the documentation yesterday and the best information seems to be the wireframes
[08:59:49 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes, that's the most current
[09:00:03 EST(-0500)] <michelled> it's where gary is sharing his designs with us
[09:00:51 EST(-0500)] <michelled> he's still working on them so expect them to change
[09:01:10 EST(-0500)] <michelled> the current state of the component is basically a rough sketch of what gary last showed us
[09:01:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay... is it feature complete?
[09:01:31 EST(-0500)] <michelled> also, the wireframes show a lot more options then will be in 0.8
[09:01:42 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> yes... i was just going to ask that
[09:01:52 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> how far are we planning on going
[09:02:52 EST(-0500)] <michelled> the features that are currently present + table of contents
[09:03:07 EST(-0500)] <michelled> if we have time we will work on more features
[09:03:49 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> where is "table of contents"
[09:04:05 EST(-0500)] <michelled> 'easier to find'
[09:04:12 EST(-0500)] <michelled> but there is no design for it yet
[09:04:26 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay...
[09:04:32 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I'm just starting work on it today
[09:04:38 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I'll keep you updated with progress
[09:04:55 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> what is that a table of contents of... is it of the content on the page, or the content on the site
[09:05:06 EST(-0500)] <michelled> of each page
[09:05:43 EST(-0500)] <michelled> there was an example implemented in transformable http://transformable-sakai.atrc.utoronto.ca/portal/
[09:05:45 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> hmm... so it would show page names or headers on a page
[09:05:54 EST(-0500)] <michelled> headers on the page
[09:06:47 EST(-0500)] <michelled> you need to create a new account using the let side nav bar
[09:06:51 EST(-0500)] <michelled> 'left'
[09:06:56 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> thank you....
[09:07:16 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> what do inputs, actions and structure refer to.... i'm guessing one of them is form fields
[09:07:17 EST(-0500)] <michelled> then select preferable
[09:08:00 EST(-0500)] <michelled> inputs, actions and structure is about highlighting those things. so perhaps enlarging them or putting more space around them
[09:08:21 EST(-0500)] <michelled> structure will likely use ARIA roles to highlights parts of the page
[09:09:20 EST(-0500)] <michelled> inputs = text fields etc, actions = buttons/links, structure would be something like a nav bar or content
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[09:09:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i see... so you would select it... and it would highlight it like a text search does in FF
[09:10:07 EST(-0500)] * fj4000 (n=Main@CPE00095bc35ea1-CM001692f5798c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fluid-work
[09:11:23 EST(-0500)] <michelled> ya, something like that. fj4000 has some ideas of what highlighting might look like. we'll put cycles into that option once we've got a table of contents I think. it's next on the list anyway.
[09:11:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> just out of curiosity how would that handle an inline edit... would it highlight it as an input field?
[09:11:46 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[09:12:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay... would you be able through one of those on to the page when you build that functionality... i'd like to include it as an edge case
[09:12:34 EST(-0500)] <michelled> we'll definitely need to do a few iterations on this. we'll implement something and have it user tested and then refine it.
[09:12:46 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay.. thanks
[09:13:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i think i have enough to start... when i get it done i'll pass it off to you guys for review... and if i have anymore questions along the way do you mind if ping you about them
[09:14:36 EST(-0500)] <michelled> that makes sense - to include an inline edit. I added it to the JIRA: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-1852
[09:14:49 EST(-0500)] <michelled> of course you should ping us!
[09:14:50 EST(-0500)] <michelled> (smile)
[09:15:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: thank you very much
[09:15:37 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I realized that you should probably go to the design meetings when they are reviewing the designs. That want you'll know about the thoughts behind the designs as they are being built up.
[09:15:40 EST(-0500)] <michelled> np
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[09:18:15 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: that's a good idea... please let me know about any as they come along
[09:18:31 EST(-0500)] <michelled> fj4000: do you have a JIRA that you work off when you are working on sakai 3?
[09:18:37 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> yup
[09:18:40 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> CLE-26
[09:18:49 EST(-0500)] <michelled> thanks
[09:18:55 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> np
[09:19:16 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled: have you seen the latest for UI Options?
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[09:19:52 EST(-0500)] <michelled> meaning in trunk?
[09:19:56 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> yes
[09:19:58 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[09:20:07 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> cool
[09:21:01 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> fj4000, michelled: I quickly looked at the demo pages and they don't seem to be working properly... I'm assuming that they are in progress and not meant to be tested right now... is that correct
[09:21:15 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Justin_o : which page?
[09:21:25 EST(-0500)] <michelled> is it related to the bug I filed this morning?
[09:21:32 EST(-0500)] <michelled> fj4000 - did you see that?
[09:21:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> the sakai-mock up is
[09:21:49 EST(-0500)] <michelled> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-2151
[09:21:50 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled 1852?
[09:21:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> the UI Options example page doesn't completely work either...
[09:21:54 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> oh
[09:21:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> for example the reset button
[09:22:09 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes, the reset functionality is not built yet
[09:22:16 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I've created a JIRA for it
[09:22:31 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled: which part is broken?
[09:22:34 EST(-0500)] <michelled> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-2150
[09:22:53 EST(-0500)] <michelled> fj4000: then entire thing - it doesn't load anymore
[09:22:56 EST(-0500)] <michelled> did you try it?
[09:23:15 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> i am now
[09:23:50 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> ah, outdated selects (tongue)
[09:23:56 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> *selectors
[09:25:07 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled, fj4000: there are also some formatting issues on the page... with font size options wrapping to two lines
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[09:28:13 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o: we decided yesterday that we'd just get a sketch of what gary had designed into the repository and then refine from there. I don't want to spend too much time on formatting right now because gary is likely to come back with more changes soon
[09:28:44 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> gotcha... okay... so i'll just leave it be for now... and come back to look at it again a bit later...
[09:34:08 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> fj4000: is the Skin component in Jira refering to FSS
[09:35:07 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> in Jira?
[09:35:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> yes
[09:35:26 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> do you have a ticket?
[09:35:48 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID/component/10067
[09:35:54 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> the component type
[09:36:16 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Yes
[09:36:22 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> thank you
[09:36:24 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> those are all FSS bugs
[09:36:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i just wanted to put a filter on the test page... and wanted to make sure it is the correct one
[09:48:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled, fj4000: for the reset button, is it intended to restore to the original unmodified style of the page or will it return the selected options to the last saved version
[09:49:12 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I don't know
[09:49:25 EST(-0500)] <michelled> do you fj4000? it's probably a question for gary
[09:49:25 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> we need to ask Gary
[09:49:31 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> ^
[09:49:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay...
[10:20:45 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Justin_o_ : please update and have a look at my commit for 2151
[10:21:40 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Justin_o_ and just bear in mind the interface for UI Options is still being determined
[10:22:11 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay
[10:25:06 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled: do we know about the No Preference bug?
[10:25:31 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> fj4000: i think i was just going to ask you about that...
[10:25:49 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> also there is no default selection for font style
[10:27:21 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Yeah, I think we need to hammer those details out
[10:27:39 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Actually, about the font style
[10:28:05 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> ah, never mind - what I wanted to recommend wouldnt work
[10:28:37 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> But your right Justin_o_ : we need to set No Preference there too
[10:29:03 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> I will fix that now
[10:29:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> fj4000: have you guys file bugs for those two issues yet?
[10:29:48 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> the text default and No Pref error?
[10:29:53 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> not I
[10:30:09 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled ?
[10:30:15 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay.. so just so i'm clear what do you consider the no preference bug
[10:30:41 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i think michelled is away right now.. she appears greyed out in the list of names
[10:32:54 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> I think the No Pref bug is when you open UI Options for the first time and no pref is selected
[10:33:12 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> it wipes out my fl-theme-x classes, which were there by default
[10:33:22 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> and thus were my "no pref" pref
[10:33:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> yes... when you save and apply the no preferences
[10:33:44 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> yes
[10:33:47 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> a solution I think
[10:34:00 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> is for it to take a snapshot of what its about to act upon
[10:34:16 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> and save that as the original to fall back on when No Pref is selected
[10:34:25 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> instead of just wiping things out
[10:34:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> that's what i thought the issue was... did you notice that the word close vanishes too
[10:34:43 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> b/c of link styles getting wiped out
[10:34:57 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> its all part of the same problem
[10:35:19 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i think there should be certain values predefined for no preferences
[10:35:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> or defaults
[10:35:43 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> probably whatever the implementor feels is best
[10:37:39 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> your right
[10:37:57 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> or it should be "smart" and know what was there before UI Options was instantiated
[10:38:13 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> ok, so I have a minor tweak ready
[10:38:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay..
[10:38:27 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> to take care of the close button turning white when this bug is hit
[10:38:39 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> its just a temp solution until the bug is fixed
[10:38:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> okay
[10:38:51 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> but it doesnt hurt either way
[10:38:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> good to know it's still there
[10:40:31 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> (smile)
[10:43:01 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> as for your possible solution, if you capture what was there before the UI Options dialog opens then the no preferences options will refer to previous preferences. For example if i set the font to widest and saved and then reopened and wanted to put it back to the way it was... how would i know what that was without trying all of the options
[10:50:12 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I'm back. just to be clear - is the bug that when an integrator uses FSS to style their page and then a user selects 'no preference' the integrator's styling is removed?
[10:50:44 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: that's what it sounds like to me
[10:50:50 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> is that already filed
[10:50:57 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I'm not sure
[10:51:25 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I think we can solve this by having the integrator specify what no preference means to them.
[10:51:43 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> I'm half way through writing up a jira so i'll just finish and we can close it if its a duplicate
[10:51:53 EST(-0500)] <michelled> thx
[10:52:22 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: i think that's a good idea... have the integrator set the defaults
[10:52:26 EST(-0500)] <michelled> fj4000, does my suggestion seem reasonable? it means a touch more configuration for the integrator
[10:53:14 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> michelled: yes, thats exactly what Justin and I were thinking too
[10:53:40 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o if you assign the bug to me I can implement that and we'll see if it makes sense in practice
[10:56:55 EST(-0500)] * michelled afk
[10:57:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> michelled: I assigned fluid-2153 to you.. you may also want to look at fluid-2152
[11:10:55 EST(-0500)] <clown> anyone/everyone: here's a shocker. aaron leventhal was laid off (he works worked for IBM).
[11:11:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> I thought IBM didn't lay people off
[11:11:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> i'm shocked
[11:12:21 EST(-0500)] <clown> davidb's name in the #accessibility channel was "davidb_inshock" for a while
[11:13:31 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o_> blame the economy i guess
[11:16:29 EST(-0500)] <michelled> a11y is the first to go (sad)
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[11:44:58 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> clown: it seems all the big guns are letting ppl go these days....yahoo is pretty much liquidating its staff, right?
[11:45:12 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> and did you read up on ppl leaving Google?
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[16:23:01 EST(-0500)] <michelled> anyone know why the 'recently updated' on the wiki isn't being updated?
[16:23:15 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I know people are doing things on the wiki
[16:31:39 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> i noticed that too
[16:31:51 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> all the FSS pages were in the list after I edited them
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[17:16:51 EST(-0500)] <michelled> fj4000, are you there?
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[17:40:26 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> I am now....
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