fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-04-19

Owned by Fluid IRC Log Bot
Last updated: Apr 19, 2011Version comment
18 min read

[08:50:29 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> hey Justin_o is http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/FSS+1.4+-+1.5+Roadmap up to date
[08:51:07 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> heidi_: no
[08:51:12 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> oh, maybe
[08:51:13 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> sorry
[08:51:17 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> Justin_o: will know
[08:51:22 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> 1.5 is going to change
[08:51:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: the comments for the 1.4 stuff should be up-to-date
[08:52:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> thanks both (smile) Justin_o k looking for yr comments for 4173
[08:52:56 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> in git hub?
[08:53:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yep
[08:53:23 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think you can see them all from the pull request's discussion view
[08:53:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o ah that's the issue where you had to strip out stuff.... did it get pulled in?
[08:54:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: there were two issues like that
[08:55:07 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> FLUID-4181 was like that too, but i did pull that one in
[09:16:31 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i think 4173 and 4022 need to both go in to see the list styles working as they should. the !importants throw off the correct styles, which are in 4173
[09:16:37 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o_
[09:16:54 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> heidi_: oh so they are co-dependent?
[09:17:00 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i think so
[09:17:17 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> heidi_: so i'll have to merge both of them to test them?
[09:17:28 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o_ yeah try that
[09:18:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o_ we could either remove importants for 4173 or add list styles for 4022
[09:18:58 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> not sure it's worth doing either
[09:19:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> heidi_: okay.. i'll take a look at them together in a bit
[09:19:27 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> thanks
[09:19:56 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o_ our list is looking good
[09:20:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i'm going to look at the fss-text and fss-themes issues
[09:21:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> heidi_: thanks
[09:21:37 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> looks like we'll get most of these FSS issues fixed for 1.4
[12:21:19 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> kasper: hello.. this might be interesting for you especially with all those ajax calls in cspace http://ajax.dynatrace.com/ajax/en/
[12:21:31 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o_> it's free, but windows only
[12:26:49 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: are you back from lunch?
[12:27:07 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> hey Justin_o i'm noticing some of my commits say "heidi hazelton" with no link to my github. is there something on my local machine i need to fix?
[12:27:21 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i'm back ya
[12:27:41 CDT(-0500)] <kasper> Justin_o: cool, thanks, will take a look!
[12:27:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> kasper: np
[12:27:54 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yes
[12:28:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: you probably set up your config differently on your macbook and desktop
[12:33:00 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o do you know what i could do to set it to heidiv on this comp?
[12:33:29 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> checking email for that first git how-to you sent. i'm guessing i run those profile commands?
[12:35:52 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> looks like just name and email... is there something else to get it to link to my github acct
[12:45:03 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o closing http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-2855 - can't reproduce
[12:49:54 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: forgot that i was going to ask you a question.. (smile) for the themes menu do the active items not get hover styling?
[12:50:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yes... just name and e-mail should be fine
[12:50:19 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i didn't put hover on active, no. makes sense to me to not do that
[12:50:47 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: okay.. thanks
[12:50:56 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> it looks like it's working with both the branches merged together
[12:51:05 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> cool, sorry about the confusion
[12:51:08 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> although there was a merge conflict (sad) i think i got it all sorted out
[12:51:13 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ugh
[12:51:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> no problem
[12:51:26 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o should i close http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-2855 after resolving, or do you want to test too
[12:52:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: sure.. i think something changed
[12:52:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> and there will likely no longer be a slider in ui options anyways.. well at least not a slider that looked like that
[12:55:29 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: if you have a chance to look at my FLUID-4186 branch
[12:55:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think the fonts are coming out a bit different
[12:56:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> also i'm wondering now if the focus should be in a separate file or not
[12:56:13 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i'll check it out now
[12:58:45 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: thanks
[13:03:01 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: do u have time for an autoinit question?
[13:03:08 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi, yes
[13:05:03 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: autoinit-ing a renderer component, trying to call that.renderer.refreshView() in "finalInit", have an error "that.renderer.refreshView()" is not a function. by debugging that.renderer, refreshView() func is not yet attached. there's a render() func though
[13:05:56 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: but render() func is not performing the same as refreshView(). my question is how to refreshView with autoInit?
[13:06:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The refreshView() method should be available at that time - one reason it might not be generated is that you did not supply either produceTree() or protoTree configuration?
[13:07:04 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> supplied produceTree
[13:07:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> How did you supply it?
[13:07:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> oh, u remind me that i had an error with it. the way i supply is,
[13:07:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> produceTree: fluid.uiOptions.controls.produceTree
[13:08:05 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> That is written in component options?
[13:08:29 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> no, in component defaults
[13:08:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[13:08:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> then it complaints that "fluid.uiOptions.controls" is not defined. i solved by using
[13:08:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> fluid.registerNamespace("fluid.uiOptions.controls");
[13:09:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I see
[13:09:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> That probably destroyed your defined function
[13:09:47 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I probably need to see all of your code - is it in a github branch?
[13:10:07 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> not yet, but i can push it in
[13:12:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> You've reminded me that the existing spectrum of means for attaching produceTree methods are not really great
[13:12:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I suspect that so far JURA has mostly made non-autoInit renderer components, and attached produceTree in the creator
[13:13:14 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> If you want to get it working quickly, you can try attaching produceTree during preInit, which is a reasonable sort of time to do that
[13:13:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> but we should look in detail at what you have done to see why it is breaking
[13:14:54 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Bosmon: ic. i've pushed in my working script @ https://github.com/cindyli/infusion/blob/FLUID-4171/src/webapp/components/uiOptions/js/UIOptions.js
[13:15:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok, thanks
[13:15:30 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> meantime, will try attaching "produceTree" at preInit. thanks, Bosmon
[13:16:19 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> fyi, Bosmon, the component i was trying to autoinit is at line 419, "fluid.uiOptions.controls"
[13:16:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> yes, I see it
[13:17:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So yes, the problem is that you have a forward reference in your defaults
[13:17:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> To the function which is not defined yet
[13:17:17 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> ok
[13:17:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The framework should be more helpful about this - this is an issue we solve for init lifecycle functions through a special mechanism
[13:17:46 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which we should also use for "produceTree"
[13:18:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> produceTree was designed at a very early stage of the framework and not really updated...
[13:19:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Unfortunately at the time the fluid.defaults call executes, the function is not defined and so produceTree is configured as "undefined"
[13:19:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which means that the renderer component init function believes it is not configured, and so doesn't generate a refreshView method
[13:20:23 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> ic. so attaching producTree at preInit would help?
[13:20:36 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> let me try
[13:20:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, if you attach it in a preInit method, it will not actually execute until the component instance constructs
[13:20:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> By which time the function will be defined
[13:21:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But really, it should be possible to register a "produceTree" method as a function name, in the same way you can with lifecycle listeners
[13:22:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> You shouldn't be expected to sling raw function pointers about (tongue)
[13:22:26 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o where were you noticing font changes?
[13:22:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> in the reset demo
[13:22:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> they seemed different in my branch than on the build site for example..
[13:23:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i could be mistaken
[13:23:41 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> k
[13:24:38 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o it's because it's not using the base defaults (smile)
[13:24:44 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> it's a good thing!
[13:24:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: okay... (smile)
[13:25:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> do you think we need to worry about backwards compatability or was this just a bug
[13:25:18 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> does the text demos still look okay?
[13:25:37 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> yes, understand. defining produceTree in preInit works like a charm. at least we have a temp solution (smile) thanks very much, Bosmon
[13:25:52 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i guess another demo should be added for base?
[13:26:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Thanks for the report, Cindy: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-4190
[13:27:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: (smile) yes.. i did add one
[13:27:37 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> it should be there in a sibling directory to all the other fss demos
[13:32:26 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o ah, cool. hmm, if anything our base font looks too small?
[13:33:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: (smile) really.. i think that one we can blame on yui
[13:34:15 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o 14px seems more reasonable. tho we should prob use relative... do you know why it has both px and em?
[13:34:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: not sure
[13:34:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: we should compare that to yui 3.3
[13:35:04 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> and see if it has changed at all
[13:35:20 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o or just do our own. accessibility-wise, a larger relative font might be better for fss
[13:36:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: that's a valid point.. we should see what jameswy and other designers think, and may need to chat with lizna
[13:37:45 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o yeah our base file might be a chance to make some nice a11y choices
[13:38:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i'm not sure about :focus in there.
[13:39:11 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yes..
[13:39:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> that's what i'm thinking too
[13:39:29 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> and when i merge in my other change it will have a different scope... fl-focus instead of fl-base
[13:39:58 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o yeah i think we should get rid of it here
[13:40:57 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: you think it should be in it's own file?
[13:43:12 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o looking at the focus jira again... we put the fl-focus into reset?
[13:43:23 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> is that what you mean? that :focus will be merged over by fl-focus
[13:43:45 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yes
[13:43:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o okay that's fine
[13:44:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> and i'll have to manually propagate those to the individual files
[13:45:02 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> k
[13:45:45 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: i've pushed up your changes for FLUID-4022 and FLUID-4173
[13:45:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> and updated the wiki page http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/FSS+1.4+-+1.5+Roadmap
[13:46:05 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o sweet - thanks!
[13:46:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: so i'll go back to trying to get the reset file all split apart
[13:46:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think we'll need some demos for the incontext versions too
[13:46:57 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> cindyli how far did you get with FLUID-4148 ? is it in your github?
[13:47:21 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o yeah the splitting looks good. just be good to talk to james or lizna about good base defaults
[13:47:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: yep.. maybe tomorrow
[13:47:53 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> ?
[13:48:05 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> yeah, or maybe info online
[13:48:27 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> heidi_: honestly, very far, (smile) since i'm actually working on ui options. it's not in my github, only at my local
[13:48:57 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> cindyli did you want to keep working on that issue? if not we can take it over! i know you're busy with UIO
[13:49:19 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o http://www.hobo-web.co.uk/best-font-size/
[13:49:50 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> heidi_: sounds good if u can take over
[13:50:43 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> cindyli okay thanks!
[13:50:56 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> thank you, heidi_
[13:56:51 CDT(-0500)] <athena> hey fluid folks - anyone happen to know what component you're using the jquery tooltip from?
[13:57:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It's from the pager, athena
[13:57:53 CDT(-0500)] <athena> hmm, interesting
[13:57:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Doesn't Inline Edit also use the tooltip?
[13:58:01 CDT(-0500)] <athena> not sure i've actually noticed its usage
[13:58:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We switched tooltips, relatively recently
[13:58:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, it may do, now
[13:58:09 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah, i know (smile)
[13:58:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> athena: sorry (wink)
[13:58:23 CDT(-0500)] <athena> lol it's fine
[13:58:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> mostly asking because we're using the tooltip itself for a portlet
[13:59:00 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and the new version is acting kind of weird - sometimes the tooltips are off the screen
[13:59:14 CDT(-0500)] <athena> not sure if maybe i just don't have all the right CSS
[13:59:30 CDT(-0500)] <athena> have you guys seen any weird behavior with it? do you have CSS for that in your themes now?
[14:03:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> athena: Hmm
[14:03:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think there's a story with that tooltip
[14:03:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I don't think it's actually a release version
[14:03:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o will know
[14:03:56 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah, it looks like the documentation is for 1.9
[14:03:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> he just stepped away, but he'll be back
[14:03:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> let me check the code
[14:04:09 CDT(-0500)] <athena> but if jQuery is starting to ship an official version, totally makes sense to use it
[14:04:10 CDT(-0500)] <athena> thanks!
[14:04:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> If I remember, this is a variation on the Filament Group's progressive enhancement tooltip
[14:06:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark, michelled, all - I wonder if we could start a little "naming competition" today
[14:06:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Since I think I will be implementing some simple version of the feature that we currently designate as "RENDERER ANTIGENS" later this week
[14:06:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And I guess I have more sense than to put something with that name into trunk even momentarily (tongue)
[14:12:09 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i did watch a cool lecture on molecular programming the other day
[14:12:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> (sad)
[14:12:45 CDT(-0500)] <athena> aw, why the sad face?
[14:12:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I hate "gimmicks" (tongue)
[14:12:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: the tooltip is from the jquery ui 1.9 pre-release
[14:13:07 CDT(-0500)] <athena> thanks Justin_o! maybe there are just a couple bugs in it still?
[14:13:28 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i dunno, i was just amazed that you can order custom DNA via regular mail
[14:13:42 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and then add water and run programs!
[14:13:56 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: yes.. we had a bunch of issues where it would just move offscreen, i think this may have been related to it trying to position itself away from the windows edge
[14:14:07 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> although the details are a bit fuzzy
[14:14:07 CDT(-0500)] <athena> ah ok
[14:14:16 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so maybe i'll just hope that they fix it (tongue)
[14:14:27 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> (smile)
[14:14:39 CDT(-0500)] <athena> what's your 1.4 timeline looking like, by the way?
[14:15:06 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: the plan is beginning of May, although we haven't set a firm date yet.. we should be doing that this week though
[14:15:20 CDT(-0500)] <athena> ok (smile)
[14:15:30 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so before uportal is released, sounds like
[14:15:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> maybe i'll find some time to test out 1.4 in the current theme
[14:15:52 CDT(-0500)] <athena> is that when you're introducing official jquery 1.5 support?
[14:16:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: From a distance, I thought you said you wanted to start a "napping competition"
[14:16:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm in!
[14:16:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> haha
[14:16:27 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I'm in for the napping too - I'm better at that then naming (smile)
[14:16:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I mean, maybe we should talk about this in detail at the dev meeting
[14:16:32 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: yes we should get that in there.. although jquery may get 1.6 out before then.. so it might be 1.6 instead
[14:16:40 CDT(-0500)] <athena> wow
[14:16:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> not sure yet how that will work out though
[14:16:44 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon: dev meeting sounds like a good time
[14:16:44 CDT(-0500)] <athena> things are moving so fast
[14:16:53 CDT(-0500)] * athena decides to enter the napping contest instead
[14:16:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The awkward aspect to this is that in some fairly near framework release, the thing we call "renderer antigens" will simply be the default
[14:17:01 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: (smile)
[14:17:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So I'm wondering how best we can plan for this transition
[14:17:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> athena, Justin_o : I'm sort of thinking we might be looking at the end of May at this point
[14:17:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> UI Options still needs some love for this release
[14:17:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and it's the star of the show
[14:17:26 CDT(-0500)] <athena> that's ok
[14:17:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We need something that is fairly easy to type... but that is presumably not exactly the same as what we write now
[14:17:41 CDT(-0500)] <athena> my guess realistically is that i may not have time to upgrade us to 1.4 before the jasig conference anyway
[14:17:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> right
[14:17:59 CDT(-0500)] <athena> bc with uportal and umobile RCs both coming up uhh . . . yeah.
[14:18:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: You're giving a workshop at that conference, right?
[14:18:06 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark: That's right
[14:18:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> As well as a main-track session
[14:18:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> how's uMobile coming, athena?
[14:18:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: which version are you using at the moment?
[14:18:17 CDT(-0500)] <athena> it is awesome
[14:18:21 CDT(-0500)] <athena> you should go be a fan on facebook
[14:18:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> What are your topics again, Bosmon?
[14:18:34 CDT(-0500)] <athena> trying ot get to 25 so we can assign ourselves a better url
[14:18:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[14:18:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, the workshop is mainly just on jQuery-based development and AJAX
[14:18:46 CDT(-0500)] <athena> Justin_o: we're using 1.3, though i'm hoping to get us to 1.3.1 this week
[14:18:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although we will probably work in some Fluidic stuff before the end
[14:18:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> If only I was still on Facebook, athena (tongue)
[14:19:06 CDT(-0500)] <athena> did you abandon it?
[14:19:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I did, yes
[14:19:12 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i mostly ignore it and try to pretend it doesn't exist
[14:19:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's a relief (smile)
[14:19:19 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i just don't read it
[14:19:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark: you rock
[14:19:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Having now purged 50% of the fascism from your life (smile)
[14:19:41 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> athena: that's my approach.. except Flipboard makes it so easy to spy on people
[14:19:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah, i totally approve
[14:19:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> My MacBook Pro is stil worth 50% fascism, Bosmon?
[14:19:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yeah, for sure (tongue)
[14:19:55 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i do follow twitter, but that's about it
[14:20:23 CDT(-0500)] <athena> if you don't object to looking at facebook, we have a few early screenshots up here: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/fbx/?set=a.179827345398432.37536.169420356439131
[14:20:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm sure they'd already be sending their blue-shirted minions around if they knew that you were a secret Betamax user...
[14:21:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So yes, I get the impression the workshop delegates mostly just want to know how to program in Javascript
[14:21:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We'll give a lightly modified version of the workshop that you and eli/justin have given a few times before
[14:21:41 CDT(-0500)] <athena> think there are more and more people in jasig who are starting to feel like knowing JS is important
[14:21:47 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the main-track session I will talk about totally crazy stuff
[14:21:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Like "options chewing" and "renderer antigens"....
[14:21:55 CDT(-0500)] <athena> that's unlikely to change anytime soon, especially w/ our adoption of Titanium
[14:22:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ah, you adopted titanium
[14:22:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> that's cool
[14:23:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Looking good, athena
[14:23:21 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah, i'm very glad we talked to you and got suggestions (smile)
[14:23:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Is this jQuery Mobile, too?
[14:23:39 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i'm mostly glad we adopted it, though Ti's support for Android is less solid
[14:23:40 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yep
[14:23:51 CDT(-0500)] <athena> though with all the navigation stuff disabled
[14:24:06 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and all the theming stuff disabled
[14:24:15 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and gary's been working in some of our original portal styles, i think
[14:25:35 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we're hoping to have some sort of alpha demo release out for the conference
[14:25:46 CDT(-0500)] <athena> need to pester jim for the video of the demo we did last week
[14:26:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> oh, cool
[14:26:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So, Bosmon, in terms of naming...
[14:26:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> What do you want to name?
[14:26:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I was thinking we've got an awful lot to do
[14:26:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I wonder if perhaps we should just start compiling a list
[14:27:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> All of the new autoInit-related option names are on my list
[14:27:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> like "postInit" and the like
[14:27:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I primarily want to name the feature of "renderer antigens"
[14:27:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ah
[14:27:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, you want to rename those too?
[14:27:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes
[14:27:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I want to rename tons (tongue)
[14:27:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's just that you start not noticing things after awhile
[14:27:50 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> hahaha
[14:28:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I didn't think that the lifecycle listener names were too unacceptable... but I'm always open to improvements (tongue)
[14:28:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Did you have any ideas for a more legible convention?
[14:29:00 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> athena: Hi, I am Harris, a developer in the IDRC. I saw you mentioned your adoption of Titanium. Is there a reason why you chose Titanium over PhoneGap?
[14:29:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> (smile)
[14:29:29 CDT(-0500)] <athena> it seems like they're actually pretty different projects
[14:29:39 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, my initial impression is that Titanium might actually work
[14:29:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[14:29:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Unlike our experience of PhoneGap (tongue)
[14:29:48 CDT(-0500)] <athena> well, yes, that was an issue too
[14:30:03 CDT(-0500)] <athena> my initial experiments with phonegap were pretty frustrating - a lot of stuff broken
[14:30:19 CDT(-0500)] <athena> Titanium is pretty solid on the iPhone, though not w/o a few annoying bugs
[14:30:29 CDT(-0500)] <athena> less terrific on the Android, though i think we'll be able to get everything to work
[14:30:35 CDT(-0500)] <athena> different strategies though
[14:30:44 CDT(-0500)] <athena> titanium actually renders native controls, which was attractive
[14:30:47 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think we formed the view that anyone who took on PhoneGap development in a thorough-going way would simply have to rewrite the whole thing
[14:31:18 CDT(-0500)] <athena> Ti actually compiles the JS down to native bytecode, from what i understand - so it's not just HTML elements that look sort of native
[14:31:25 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah
[14:31:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Interesting... it renders native controls above the ones which are referenced in HTML?
[14:31:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, it's pretty funny
[14:31:45 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we also found that it was very difficult to mix server and local content together in PhoneGap
[14:31:50 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ti itself can only be a "transitional" technology
[14:31:54 CDT(-0500)] <athena> you build up the UI w/ javascript
[14:32:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Since soon it will simply be faster to run JS natively than in any conceivable bytecode (tongue)
[14:32:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> athena: Right, so Titanium renders native UIs, whereas PhoneGap is just a giant embedded browser view with JavaScript APIs for hardware-specific services such as the GPS, Camera etc., right?
[14:32:12 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> is this still an issue for the newest version of phonegap? or was this a while back then when you tried it?
[14:32:16 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so anything you've provided via HTML is just HTML, but it creates native components from the JS API
[14:32:26 CDT(-0500)] <athena> couple months ago, harriswong
[14:32:42 CDT(-0500)] <athena> colinclark: that's my understanding mostly
[14:32:54 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so right now we have screens that are actually local and remote
[14:33:03 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so maybe a navigation bar, some controls, etc. that are provided by the native app
[14:33:13 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and then an embedded webview that has a portlet in it
[14:33:27 CDT(-0500)] <athena> it's worked pretty well so far, esp on iPHone
[14:33:40 CDT(-0500)] <athena> though i do have some concerns about Titanium's free vs. paid model in the long term
[14:33:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, the basic approach doesn't seem promising in the long term
[14:34:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Anything that has something resembling an "API" is pretty suspicious (tongue)
[14:34:32 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But it will probably work a lot better in practice than the best approach based on the "phoneGap" model for at least the next couple of years
[14:34:57 CDT(-0500)] <athena> most of our native code is for things like getting the user location, doing caching, authentication, etc.
[14:35:03 CDT(-0500)] <athena> so most of our functionality is still on the web side
[14:35:14 CDT(-0500)] <athena> hopefully that'll make it possible to jump frameworks if we really have to someday
[14:35:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> yes
[14:35:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> harriswong: Are you using PhoneGap for anything, yourself?
[14:35:30 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and in the more immediate term, it means we have both browser-based and app-based functionality
[14:35:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Keeping as much as possible on the web side is always going to be the best long-term bet
[14:35:42 CDT(-0500)] <athena> definitely
[14:35:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Since the web is the only thing that we are sure will still be there in 20 years (smile)
[14:36:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Or even "100 years" as I rashly suggested in a paper we worked on recently (tongue)
[14:36:16 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> colinclark: no, but i was looking more at phoneGap than titanium.
[14:37:06 CDT(-0500)] <athena> it probably depends in part what you're doing
[14:37:23 CDT(-0500)] <athena> some of the problems we ran into were due to being in a portal environment
[14:37:51 CDT(-0500)] <athena> if you were developing using local rather than remote content, i think phonegap would generally be faster (assuming it worked)
[14:38:11 CDT(-0500)] <athena> easier to just write up a UI w/ HTML than manually building it through a JS API
[14:41:25 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we originally wanted to have some tabs across the bottom, and different portlets in each tab
[14:41:31 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and that really didn't work well w/ phonegap
[14:42:20 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> i'm assuming each portlets fetching data from different servers via some webservices, ie REST/RPC-jSON, etc etc
[14:43:39 CDT(-0500)] <athena> generally when we display a portlet we're looking to display markup from the server verbatim
[14:43:56 CDT(-0500)] <athena> which is where we're using jQM
[14:46:40 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> i see. Interesting. and titanium works?
[14:49:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yep, seems to work pretty well
[14:52:05 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> cool.. thanks for sharing!
[14:52:35 CDT(-0500)] <athena> definitely would love to hear how your experiences go ):
[14:52:35 CDT(-0500)] <athena> (smile)
[14:52:56 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i'm quite new to all this, though luckily one of my coworkers has done a bunch of native mobile development
[14:53:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> who's that, athena?
[14:53:47 CDT(-0500)] <athena> jeff cross - new unicon employee
[14:54:00 CDT(-0500)] <athena> SO glad he's working with us now
[14:54:01 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> i actually haven't started using any, but i was looking at both phonegap and titanium. Once i do, i will let you know how it goes (smile)
[14:54:07 CDT(-0500)] <athena> he's been a total lifesaver on this project
[14:54:16 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i look forward to it harriswong (smile)
[14:54:32 CDT(-0500)] <athena> and of course having gary involved for the browser-side skinning is completely awesome
[14:58:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> cool
[14:58:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> you've got an awesome team
[14:59:03 CDT(-0500)] <athena> completely
[14:59:17 CDT(-0500)] <athena> kinda overwhelmed right now, but can't complain - it's all good stuff
[15:01:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> (smile)