fluid-work IRC Logs-2012-02-14

[08:55:07 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: so i found a bug in the uploader and filed it http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-4602

[08:55:30 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: I'm looking into writing a unit test for it, but not sure of the usefullness

[08:55:36 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ok

[08:56:05 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: any thoughts.. the jira outlines the issue and fix.. basically the option was specified incorrectly..

[08:56:52 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> If the unit tests pass, you're fine

[08:57:08 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: okay, thanks

[09:13:33 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i've sent a pull request https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/pull/202

[09:13:41 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> would you be able to review it for me?

[09:13:51 CST(-0600)] <jhung> justin_o: I'm likely going to change the exporter design a little, mbut it shouldn't affect any integration work. Also let me know how I can help with integration. I was thinking I can help creating those templates or something similar.

[09:14:47 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> jhung: sure.. i'm going to start by getting uploader working.. which will require me to change the mark up a bit.. i might pass it back to you to get the styling correct, but i'll try to give it a first pass

[09:16:39 CST(-0600)] <jhung> justin_o: sounds great to me.

[09:18:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Justin_o: yep, i'll review it

[09:20:45 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: thanks

[10:50:47 CST(-0600)] <jessm> fluid-everyone: does anyone have admin on the ILDH? colinclark did heidiv give you a login

[10:50:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yeah

[10:51:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac and michelled should also have creds, I believe

[11:34:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Justin_o: I reviewed and pushed your Uploader fix

[11:34:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> looked good, tested out

[11:34:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it's done

[11:34:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> thanks for the fix!

[11:35:22 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> colinclark: no problem, thanks for getting it in

[11:39:32 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> jhung: i've pushed up changes my current implementation changes to my bitbucket repo https://bitbucket.org/jobara/decapod-ui-iteration3

[11:39:42 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> you can see that i had to change the markup a bit for the browse button

[11:40:07 CST(-0600)] <jhung> okay justin_o. I'll take a look at it.

[11:40:57 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> jhung: thanks.. you'll notice that instead of it being a button, it is a span. The span contains another span that acts as the label and the uploader will inject an input inside to handle the actual uploading

[11:41:52 CST(-0600)] <jhung> okay sounds good.

[12:03:26 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> jhung: question, about the import

[12:03:27 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> when it says "157 files found" and then "3 were incompatible or unreadable" does the 157 include the 3 that won't upload or not

[12:12:47 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: did you change the name of fluid-videoPlayer-theme in the high fidelity branch?

[12:13:01 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yes, I did, michelled

[12:13:06 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cool thx

[12:13:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> to fl-theme

[12:23:00 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: the caption controller failing test is expected in the controllers branch, right?

[12:23:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> you are fixing that now?

[12:23:24 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> right, the one that has a JIRA number mentioned. The 4589 branch will fix that

[12:24:03 CST(-0600)] <michelled> ok anastasiac - your controllers branch is in!

[12:24:10 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thanks for the hard work

[12:24:31 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yay!! thanks so much!

[12:45:40 CST(-0600)] <michelled> anastasiac: I know you are breaking up the high fidelity work

[12:45:50 CST(-0600)] <michelled> are you still expecting the current pull request to be reviewed?

[13:02:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> hey Bosmon and yura do you have five minutes to chat in about five minutes?

[13:03:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I wanted to check in super quick about our community workshop tomorrow

[13:03:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> maybe more like in 15 minutes

[13:04:00 CST(-0600)] <yura> colinclark: sure

[13:08:24 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok

[13:08:30 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I'll try to get back quickly

[13:08:48 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I really need to review the 15 steps I need to get nickname notification on this client

[13:20:48 CST(-0600)] <jhung> justin_o: I should be merging your decapod-ui-iteration3 code to me repo?

[13:20:59 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> jhung: yes please

[13:21:17 CST(-0600)] <Justin_o> you should see the start of a working uploader integration there.. which has resulted in some markup and styling changes for the button

[13:22:15 CST(-0600)] <jhung> okay thanks justin_o.

[13:37:15 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Ok... I'm back now, for anyone who wants to meet : P

[13:55:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon and yura I want to meet

[13:55:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> quickly

[13:55:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> are you ready?

[13:55:20 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> yes

[13:55:29 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I am ready QUICKLY!

[14:08:15 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> so, michelled and I are just looking at this code for videoPlayer tab order

[14:08:19 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> https://github.com/acheetham/videoPlayer/blob/bff5f01b1b9d84543d60033e0ccc0482ff0028e9/js/VideoPlayer_controllers.js#L150-155

[14:08:26 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Which looks rather suspect to me

[14:08:45 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I think some time ago we established that it is inadvisable to use tabindex values other than (nothing), 0 and 1

[14:09:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> michelled tells me that this code is dealing with the issue that tabbing order does not agree with visual (DOM) order

[14:09:07 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I was explaining to Bosmon that the visual order of the elements doesn't match the tab order that we want.

[14:09:15 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Which I guess is itself possibly suspect

[14:09:25 CST(-0600)] <michelled> basically, the scrubber bar is above the controls

[14:09:42 CST(-0600)] <michelled> but when tabbing, we want play to be the first thing in tab order

[14:10:20 CST(-0600)] <michelled> then the scrubber, then the other controls

[14:10:32 CST(-0600)] <michelled> jameswy: that is what you want, right? ^

[14:11:57 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> michelled: Yep, more or less. Video as a whole -> play -> volume -> scrubber -> cc/transcript/videodesc -> uio -> fs

[14:12:35 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Is this perhaps not a situation where we really want to use the selectable plugin rather than tab order?

[14:12:40 CST(-0600)] <michelled> Bosmon: was our concern related to not really knowing what else is on the page?

[14:12:47 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I think that all of the considerations for "not forcing the user to tab through everything" apply here

[14:13:12 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And the model of "moving to the widget initially puts focus on the first subelement" etc.

[14:13:20 CST(-0600)] <michelled> Bosmon: I thought that tab would be the natural way of moving through the controls

[14:13:31 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It seems to me that that might be more reliable than trying to subvert the natural tabindex order

[14:15:38 CST(-0600)] <michelled> Bosmon: there are some more details about the keyboard interaction. so, when the video first loads there is an overlay with a play button. tabbing to the video puts focus on it so that enter will play the video. at this point none of the other controls are visible

[14:15:54 CST(-0600)] <michelled> the next time the user hits tab, the controls become visible and focus should be on play

[14:16:20 CST(-0600)] <michelled> escape hides the controls again and puts focus back on the video

[14:17:02 CST(-0600)] <michelled> does that make sense Bosmon?

[14:17:04 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Sounds like a difficult interaction for a user to manage who isn't sighted

[14:17:39 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I suppose a non sighted user would never bother to hide the controls

[14:18:08 CST(-0600)] <michelled> so it means they would hear 'play' twice, but otherwise it shouldn't be too confusing

[14:18:12 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So I'm wondering whether the "next time the user hits tab" should be replaced by an arrow key interaction?

[14:18:29 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I think we have to bear in mind how tedious it would be for a user to navigate a document which had multiple videos embedded in it

[14:18:44 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> It sounds like they might have to do a lot of tabbing to get past a videoPlayer....

[14:19:12 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yes, that's true

[14:19:44 CST(-0600)] <michelled> unfortunately jameswy has just stepped away

[14:48:22 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> michelled, Bosmon: I think any screen which has many elements (e.g., any one of the CSpace schema editing screens) would be tedious for keyboard-only users to navigate, if there were no skip links available.

[14:53:17 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> jameswy - what do you think of the idea of making the videoPlayer's domain "selectable" as we do with the Reorderer, rather than "tabbable"?

[14:53:25 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Also colinclark, if you are around...

[14:53:48 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> Bosmon: you mean like radio groups?

[14:54:29 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I guess those work the same way - I'm not completely sure

[14:54:47 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> (tab to the group, and arrow between items within the group)

[14:55:01 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes, that's right

[14:55:10 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I think the Reorderer is the main component we have that works that way

[14:56:28 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> Bosmon: I'm amenable to that idea, but I was met with some resistance to it. anastasiac, michelled?

[14:59:00 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jameswy, I don't have any objection in principle, but I'd want to know how the keyboard interaction would work for the "sub" controls i.e. the volume slider and the captions/transcripts/audiodescriptions/mini-uio popup menus

[14:59:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, michelled: ^

[14:59:57 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> also, Bosmon, do you know off-hand if the selectable plugin capability enforces the order of the selectable items?

[15:00:05 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> anastasiac - yes, it definitely does

[15:00:12 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Otherwise navigation would be impossible

[15:00:37 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so the call to fluid("selectable" ) would have to provide a specific list of the controls in the desired order...

[15:00:44 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes, it would

[15:01:00 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> ok, so then the question is how to control the volume and the pop-ups

[15:01:23 CST(-0600)] * anastasiac has a call now

[15:01:46 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> One option for these is to pick one "direction" of the arrows to navigate amongst the controls, and the perpendicular direction to operate those which have a linear range

[15:02:12 CST(-0600)] <michelled> I think that would be a little confusing when operating a slider

[15:02:13 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> So, for example, horizontal arrows select the different widgets, and once focused, up and down arrows would operate the volume control

[15:02:44 CST(-0600)] <michelled> the sliders appear horizontal - pressing up and down to move them doesn't seem obvious

[15:02:53 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Well then, the opposite way round

[15:03:16 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> the controls are horizontal, too

[15:07:14 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Not all of them, although some of them are....

[15:10:11 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Unfortunately I think the tabindex strategy is unworkable, so we will have to think of some kind of idea : P

[15:10:16 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Even if it is not the arrow keys

[15:10:33 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> The problem with tabindex is that it will be extremely hard to cooperate with other elements in the document, as well as other instances of the video player

[15:11:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And also I think we found in practice when we tried it there are numerous problems with support of non-default tabindex values on some browsers

[15:11:10 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Perhaps these have gone away now

[15:11:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I mean, values other than (nothing), 0 or 1

[15:12:48 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yes, I agree that it would not work with multiple video players

[15:12:59 CST(-0600)] <michelled> jameswy: how bad is it if tab works in DOM order?

[15:13:25 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> michelled: Depends. How bad is the DOM order?

[15:13:40 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jameswy, this would mean that the scrub bar would be tabbed to before the controls below it

[15:14:00 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> anastasiac, michelled: Bad.

[15:14:14 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Another option is to use standard arrow keys for selection (both horizontal and vertical) and then require some kind of modifier to change settings on the sliders - for example shift or control

[15:14:40 CST(-0600)] <michelled> or enter to activate and then arrows to move

[15:14:45 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Yes

[15:14:54 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Activating is a good idea

[15:14:59 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Would we use the same key to deactivate?

[15:15:04 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> this is the way the pop-up works already, but not volume or scub bar

[15:15:06 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Perhaps space to activate would be more expected

[15:16:01 CST(-0600)] <michelled> how does activation sit with you jameswy?

[15:16:17 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> jvass: Might want to keep track of the conversation happening here, starting at around 9:14 PM.

[15:16:20 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> currently, both space and enter activate the buttons

[15:16:44 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> also: "activate" of the volume button already mutes/unmutes, so that couldn't be used to "switch to" the volume slider

[15:17:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Perhaps we could make the volume slider a different control to the volume button? That is, one not controlled by it

[15:22:47 CST(-0600)] <jameswy> anastasiac, jvass, michelled: Have a moment to do a collocated brainstorm and get this solved once and for all? Bosmon you're welcome to join via Skype.

[15:23:11 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I'm on a call right now, but you should go ahead without me

[15:23:28 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> just take good notes on the decisions

[15:24:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> ok, jameswy

[15:24:46 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Let me know when it goes...

[15:57:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: FISH

[15:57:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> hi

[15:57:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So

[15:57:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Bosmon and I have been debating

[15:57:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm dealing with Gregg in one ear

[15:57:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you complaining (rightly) about me not using the channel in the other

[15:57:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and pondering tab order issues with my third eye

[15:57:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, I don't know how far you got

[15:58:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but in the spirit of Talking in the Channel

[15:58:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cough cough

[15:58:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> What I can say is that I don't agree with Bosmon's observations above here in the channel

[15:58:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but I do agree that the tab index implementation in the VideoPlayer is broken

[15:58:49 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> since tab order is global to the page

[15:58:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> not to a widget

[15:59:28 CST(-0600)] <michelled> thanks colinclark for Talking in the Channel

[16:00:06 CST(-0600)] <michelled> Bosmon: is now pondering the idea of a tab order manager on the page

[16:00:23 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> I don't know if you hear the conversation, but I am arguing that the use of positive tabindex values is "not Fluidic" even if we could do experiments to demonstrate that it works in a consistent way across browsers

[16:00:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> some kind of a global thing?

[16:00:40 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> "not Fluidic" in the sense that "this would be a bad idea if everyone followed our policy and did what we did"

[16:00:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> i can only hear the complain-y part of the conversation

[16:00:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the rest is too quiet

[16:00:54 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Since we can never guarantee that other people are not using the same tabindex values we are

[16:01:00 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> And we cannot force people to use our manager

[16:01:03 CST(-0600)] <Bosmon> Should we write one