fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-03-31

[10:50:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> hey Justin_o i updated http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/FSS+1.4+-+1.5+Roadmap
[10:50:56 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> with status info
[10:57:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> heidi_: thanks
[10:57:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> good idea
[11:12:22 CDT(-0500)] <smriti> Hi All, I missed the stand up this am due to an appointment. My updates are I'm continuing work on the templates and theme for the new snow site today. I will be working late in teh evening and night to catch up on some missed time..
[11:13:41 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> thanks smriti!
[11:31:07 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> yura: do you have minute to talk a bit of IoC?
[11:31:33 CDT(-0500)] <yura> mlam: syre
[11:31:48 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Ok, so I'm trying out the autoInit feature for creating a component
[11:32:20 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I'm making a test to ensure that an uploader is properly instantiated as a subcomponent
[11:32:39 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I'm creating a dummy parent component
[11:32:43 CDT(-0500)] <yura> right
[11:33:02 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> i'll send you a pastebin link
[11:33:31 CDT(-0500)] <yura> sure
[11:34:08 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> http://pastebin.com/LrN2bAK1
[11:34:43 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> When I'm trying to instantiate my parent component, IoC keeps complaining that the container is not jquery-able, yet it clearly is from line 12
[11:35:54 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> is the syntax incorrect for the container in the defaults?
[11:37:02 CDT(-0500)] <yura> right
[11:37:38 CDT(-0500)] <yura> i dont think autoinit matters here
[11:37:48 CDT(-0500)] <yura> since you are not creating the parent through ioc
[11:38:02 CDT(-0500)] <yura> so your container wont get resovled correctly
[11:38:16 CDT(-0500)] <yura> so i think to make it work you need to remove autoinit
[11:38:27 CDT(-0500)] <yura> and make a creator function
[11:38:35 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> a creator function for the parent?
[11:38:38 CDT(-0500)] <yura> but keep uploader as a subcomponent in defaults
[11:38:59 CDT(-0500)] <yura> this way when you call the creator function directly if will actually exectute it
[11:39:08 CDT(-0500)] <yura> yes the parent needs a creator function
[11:39:42 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I thought the autoInit feature automatically creates a component for you?
[11:41:14 CDT(-0500)] <yura> yes if it's resolved through IoC , i think
[11:43:53 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok, cool thanks yura
[11:44:02 CDT(-0500)] <yura> mlam: let me know if that works
[11:44:13 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok, i will
[11:53:39 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> yura, it works
[11:53:49 CDT(-0500)] <yura> awesome
[11:54:06 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> thanks!
[11:55:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> yura: Sorry, I'm jumping in late... but isn't the point of what mlam is trying to do is to not have a creator function?
[11:56:27 CDT(-0500)] <yura> colinclark_: i agree and i think after the defaults are announced there will be a function with the same name as the component but i dont think you can use it outside of IoC
[11:56:39 CDT(-0500)] <yura> at least that's proven to be the case at the moment
[11:56:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ok
[11:57:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I think I'm confused
[11:57:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lemme look at the pastebin again
[11:57:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: You're trying to make a test that instantiates an Uploader via IoC, right?
[11:57:36 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> yes
[11:57:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> and instantiates it as a subcomponent
[11:58:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and yura, you're saying that you can't directly invoke an auto-inited component at the moment?
[11:58:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> in other words, you can't do what mlam is trying to do?
[11:58:13 CDT(-0500)] <yura> colinclark_: i m afraid so
[11:58:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Is that a bug?
[11:59:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> (I understand what you're saying now... just curious if you think it's a bug in the framework or by design)
[11:59:09 CDT(-0500)] <yura> colinclark_: might be
[11:59:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ok
[12:00:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> thanks yura, that explanation helped a lot
[12:00:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> And, for the record, mlam, I would have tried to do exactly what you are trying to do
[12:00:41 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Ok, cool
[12:01:38 CDT(-0500)] <yura> colinclark_: i tried doing the same thing today earlier (smile)
[12:02:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> (smile)
[12:06:12 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> colinclark_: yura: In my scenario here, the parent component and the uploader can't share the same container, right?
[12:06:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: Does the parent component even need a container?
[12:06:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> What would it even be?
[12:07:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> You could probably just make your parent a Little Component
[12:07:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Since it doesn't do anything, it probably doesn't need to be a View
[12:07:31 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I see
[12:07:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> unless I'm missing something
[12:07:54 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> fluid-everyone: the FSS call is starting
[12:08:05 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> if you want to be included let us know
[12:13:05 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> colinclark_: so if my parent Little Component doesn't have a container, would I need a demands block to pass in a container to my uploader subcomponent?
[12:13:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> not necessarily
[12:13:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> You will for your third category of test cases
[12:14:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but you know what the container is, so for the plain IoC tests, just specify it
[12:14:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> at line 6 of your pastebin, for example
[12:44:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> colinclark_: in line 6 of my pastebin, how can you specify a container if the expected value is a string? we have to guarantee that the container is jquery-able, right?
[12:45:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: The key is the -able suffix
[12:45:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jQuery-able, not necessarily a jQuery (smile)
[12:45:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> A plain old selector string, for example, is fully jQueryable
[12:45:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> If you're curious about what, have a look at the implementation of fluid.container() in Fluid.js
[12:46:00 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok
[12:46:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> sorry, I meant "if you're curious about why..."
[12:47:12 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> to be specific, i've replaced the container value to "flc-uploader", but the framework is still complaining that the container isn't jqueryable. and i made sure that my markup had the appropriate selectors (smile)
[12:47:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: Look closer at your string (wink)
[12:48:39 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> the dot. (sad) Ah...I see the fluid.container wraps the selector
[12:48:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> you got it
[12:56:07 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> colinclark_: The framework is still complaining about a non-jqueryable container . It shouldn't matter that the parent is a little component and the subcomponent is a view? here's another pasty: http://pastebin.com/dNEqpnSA
[12:57:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: Your parent still has a view component grade, even though you're initializing it as a little component
[12:59:20 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I've tried changing the gradeNames to a littleComponent as well, and I'm getting the same result
[13:01:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Update your pastebin and see what yura says
[13:01:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: ^
[13:01:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok
[13:02:27 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> yura, can you check my pastebin? http://pastebin.com/LBtQU4kc
[13:06:55 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> mlam: What's the exact error you're seeing?
[13:07:31 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> from the message.fail(), ""fluid.container was supplied a non-jQueryable element"
[13:07:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> For which component?
[13:21:35 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> it looks like it's breaking on the uploader view. IoC hasn't resolved any of the subcomponents yet.
[13:22:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> That message usually indicates a faulty grade
[13:23:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I guess you mistyped before and meant ".flc-uploader" rather than "flc-uploader"?
[13:25:02 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Bosmon2: Yes, its' now ".flc-uploader"
[13:27:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> There isn't enough context in your pastie to see what the cause of the problem might be
[13:27:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Could you check it into a git branch?
[13:28:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Sure
[13:32:58 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Bosmon2: https://github.com/mlam/infusion/tree/FLUID-4163
[13:34:43 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> It's in the UploaderTests.js file
[13:39:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Thanks, I will take a look at it
[13:41:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> We should always swap git:// style URLs btw, the https ones never work correctly because of their cheapskate certificates (tongue)
[13:56:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> mlam: it looks like the issue is that your branch is at least a week out of date with respect to the core framework
[13:56:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> You should try doing a merge to update it
[13:59:26 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> (sad)
[13:59:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Not to worry, git can sometimes be confusing in its results (tongue)
[14:00:29 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Thanks Bosmon2 for looking at it. And thanks colinclark_ for the help earlier
[14:24:27 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, regarding .fl-linearEnabled, I found a note about it in the description of .fl-layout-linear: "If an element is stubborn and doesn't linearize as expected, add .fl-linearEnabled to it "
[14:24:44 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> oh, odd!
[14:24:49 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> thanks anatasiac!
[14:24:54 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> np
[14:25:01 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> this is in the wiki?
[14:26:06 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, yes, on the FSS API page
[14:26:13 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> cool, thanks
[14:31:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: michelled_ had an interesting issue at standup, which we talked about a bit
[14:31:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> might be worth chatting about it here
[14:35:52 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Cool
[14:36:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Tell me of this issue
[14:36:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, UI Options was built with a template that is also a standalone HTML page
[14:36:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It has, you know, a head with script tags
[14:36:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> A body
[14:36:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> a script block to instantiate an example of UI Options
[14:36:53 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jamon: i can't log into the IDRC wiki and in trying to get my passwd mailed to me i get this error: Connection to mailserver '' failed: [Errno 111] Connection refused
[14:37:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: I don't know if that's a typical scenario for templates these days
[14:37:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> as opposed to being some kind of fragment of HTML
[14:38:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess there's no way currently, if you're fetching a template via fetchResources(), to say "actually, it's only a portion of this page which is really interesting to me."
[14:39:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess a bunch of scr-ignores might be the closest equivalent?
[14:39:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Well, I guess this is something which is supported by jQuery.ajax in fact
[14:39:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> But I assume it is something it does by loading a full DOM for the fetched material
[14:39:46 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> And then tinkering with it using the selector engine
[14:39:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> yeah
[14:40:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jQuery.load(), you mean?
[14:40:13 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> yes, that
[14:40:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> With their weird URL + whitespace + selector API
[14:41:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess the first question is, do we want to have templates for a component that are themselves directly previewable examples of the working component?
[14:42:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It's nice to be able to pop up a page and see what it's like
[14:42:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but it has a funny kind of circularity
[14:42:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> And I guess if the answer is "yes," then the next question is whether or not fetchResources() should support something similar to jQuery.load(), but without the ugly syntax?
[14:42:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Well, I think it would be better to separate the preview page from the actual template itself
[14:43:11 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> We could hack the template parser so it can "skip a bit, brother"
[14:43:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> (smile)
[14:43:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ;p;
[14:43:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lol
[14:43:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> But we would still be paying this cost every time, as well as the cost of fetching the useless material
[14:43:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Okay, so you're saying we should settle on HTML fragments for all templates
[14:43:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I mean, 3 costs... (tongue) i) hacking the parser, ii) fetching extra stuff, iii) skipping the extra stuff
[14:43:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Or rather, containing whatever is necessary
[14:43:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> yeah
[14:44:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Yes, our "preview pages" would be no less previewable
[14:44:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess in many cases our preview pages are actually just demos
[14:44:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Though they needn't have to be
[14:44:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Unless of course we are running on one of those pernicious browsers which still forbid filesystem AJAX
[14:44:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> michelled: I've been doing all the talking so far
[14:44:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> But it's pretty likely that that would cause a problem very shortly further on in any case (tongue)
[14:45:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> did I miss anything?
[14:46:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> maybe she disappeared
[14:46:40 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> sorry - back now
[14:46:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ah, hi
[14:46:46 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> you didn't miss anything
[14:47:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, michelled, are you content to fragmentize UIOptions.html?
[14:47:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> And, in fact, we'll just keep breaking it down into smaller chunks
[14:47:21 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> so are we saying that we will no longer be able to see UI Options out of context (smile)
[14:47:28 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> we would only see it working in demos?
[14:47:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> hmm
[14:47:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Well, what is "context" (smile)
[14:47:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> You could make a preview page that isn't a demo if you wanted, michelled
[14:47:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Surely its context is only any context it works in (tongue)
[14:47:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It's up to you
[14:48:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> It's just we will have 2 HTML files where we used to have 1
[14:48:24 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> what is in the second one? I don't think I'm understanding how we would fragment the file
[14:48:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> "Take 2 bottles into the shower"
[14:48:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> michelled: Take a look at the Uploader
[14:48:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ooh, bad idea
[14:48:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> it is like UI Options
[14:48:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> One file would be just the template material
[14:48:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> The other would be the "demo"
[14:49:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> or preview page or whatever
[14:49:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> in other words, it would contain the rest of the page
[14:49:40 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> by preview in this context you aren't actually talking about the UI Options preview, are you?
[14:49:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> no
[14:49:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> "example" page?
[14:49:54 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> (smile)
[14:50:01 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> jessm: greg was here, checking now
[14:50:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> thing to see ui options in, which is not a demo?
[14:50:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Yes
[14:50:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> That thing (smile)
[14:50:32 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon2: what I was meaning by out of context is this: http://build.fluidproject.org/infusion/components/uiOptions/html/UIOptions.html
[14:50:42 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> versus in context: http://build.fluidproject.org/infusion/demos/uiOptions/demo.html
[14:50:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> where "context," in your case, means "as if it were in a real application such as Sakai"
[14:51:00 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[14:51:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Yes... but you only SAY that is the context, because you put the template file in amongst a full HTML document which lets you run it (tongue)
[14:51:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> right
[14:51:55 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> so, do we want to come up with a best practice here?
[14:52:03 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> 1. templates should be html fragments
[14:52:10 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> perhaps they need a naming convention
[14:52:20 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> jessm: Mar 31 15:52:01 xen0 postfix/smtp[4401]: 07C5988092: to=<jess@jessmitchell.com>, relay=jessmitchell.com[]:25, delay=1.5, delays=0.06/0/0.46/0.94, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 OK id=1Q5NuT-0002z9-9H)
[14:52:25 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> Mar 31 15:52:01 xen0 postfix/qmgr[27419]: 07C5988092: removed
[14:52:35 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> 2. examples or previews would be full html files
[14:52:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> nice, email addresses in the channel
[14:52:56 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark_, Bosmon2: am I understanding what you've proposed?
[14:52:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> hello spam
[14:53:12 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I guess the wiki is editable
[14:53:12 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jamon: am i supposed to decipher that?
[14:53:21 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I guess "UIOptionsTemplate.html" would be a good kind of convention
[14:53:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> There will be, very soon, multiple templates
[14:53:46 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[14:53:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> But I guess they will be templates for "other things"
[14:54:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> "other configurations of UIOptions"?
[14:54:09 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> does this constitute an API change?
[14:54:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> No, we're going to break UI Options into smaller components
[14:54:15 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jamon: and i just got a password email from the fluid wiki – wrong wiki
[14:54:35 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> ah i see jessm
[14:54:58 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> i fail
[14:55:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Justin_o: Do we have a current convention for template names?
[14:55:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> My personal aesthetic has increasingly moved away from camel case-ism on the file system
[14:55:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but that's the whole point of having conventions (tongue)
[14:55:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> to avoid my personal aesthetic (tongue)
[14:56:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> What naming aesthetic do you prefer?
[14:56:34 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark_: when you say template names.. you mean html files that may not be demo files
[14:56:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> or actual running html
[14:56:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Hyphenism? Underscorism? (tongue)
[14:56:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> HTML templates for a component
[14:56:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: I prefer avoiding the shift key
[14:57:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> so hyphenism
[14:57:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Justin_o: HTML templates for a component
[14:57:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Interesting
[14:57:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Things that get rendered with the Renderer
[14:57:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark_: i think we've been using Heads up camel case
[14:57:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I was thinking of claiming, anti-colonially, that I actually need to type the shift key to enter a - character on my keyboard, but actually that is not in fact the case (smile)
[14:58:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Justin_o: With any kind of suffix?
[14:58:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: You do have that imperial keyboard
[14:58:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I brought a whole batch of them with me when I came to the US...
[14:58:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> As insurance!
[14:58:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> £££££!
[14:59:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Yes, that strange money symbol
[14:59:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> that is apparently actually worth something (tongue)
[14:59:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> There's even, "proleptically", a euro symbol painted on the 4 key
[14:59:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> But I'm not quite sure how to trigger it
[15:00:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess I'm okay with a convention of <ComponentName>Template.html if everyone else is
[15:00:03 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark_: no specific suffix.. other than .html
[15:00:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> assuming it's not already the convention
[15:00:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ok
[15:00:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think they are generally named after the component
[15:00:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It's interesting
[15:00:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> not many components even have HTML associated with them
[15:01:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Uploader
[15:01:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon2: mine keyboard can do this 
[15:01:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Ack!
[15:01:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Cover it with a Firefox sticker, quick!
[15:01:21 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> lol
[15:01:22 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> lol
[15:01:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Uploader, which shouldn't be used as an example of anything
[15:01:30 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> 
[15:01:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> UI Options, which we are currently discussing
[15:01:32 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> (woops)
[15:01:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> too bad none of us are ops
[15:01:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> no kicking
[15:02:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and table of contents
[15:02:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> which has a fragment named TableOfContents.html
[15:02:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Thankfully I just see black squares (smile)
[15:02:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> My "peril sensitive chromatic sunglasses" prevent me from seeing anything which might disturb me
[15:02:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> your platform censored it (tongue)
[15:02:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lol
[15:03:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> it would have been funny if they changed to little windows logos
[15:03:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It's like when I had an iphone
[15:03:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Got a Unicode Code Point for that logo, mate? (tongue)
[15:03:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and the stupid autocorrect would always spell it "iPhone" for me
[15:03:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I prefer Iphone
[15:04:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> okay, so
[15:04:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> we digress
[15:04:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> michelled: UI Options and Uploader are the only two examples of this sort of thing
[15:04:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark_: iPhone is the proper name though
[15:04:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> TM
[15:05:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> where there is an HTML file we ship alongside the component as a bare-bones example
[15:05:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> And I guess you could ask the question "why?"
[15:05:19 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I guess that's because InlineEdit has the markup in the js file
[15:05:20 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark_ iPhone™
[15:05:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> i miss ascii
[15:05:56 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> it does surprise me that we don't ship a template with the pager
[15:06:08 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Lots of things may surprise you about the pager
[15:06:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> In addition to the fact that it has 0 test cases for 80% of its functionality
[15:06:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> iPager
[15:06:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Ipager
[15:07:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: sounds like Uploader
[15:07:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> until mlam got his hands on it
[15:07:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> now things are looking up
[15:07:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, michelled
[15:08:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> What if I tried to argue that these little example files really aren't necessary
[15:08:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Or at least argue that they shouldn't live inside the component folder
[15:08:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I don't know
[15:08:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> You might get a little "pushback" on that (tongue)
[15:08:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> okay, push away
[15:08:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Let's assess the full spectrum of "demos/test-like things" we imagine recommending for a "standard component"
[15:09:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Can you list them off?
[15:09:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Well this is interesting
[15:09:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> this opens a huge can of worms
[15:09:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> which i'm delighted to open up
[15:09:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> too bad jameswy just left
[15:10:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, we want to emphasize really good, hot demos
[15:10:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> The sort of thing that a developer doesn't "own"
[15:10:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> in the sense that they are carefully designed
[15:11:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, those are the most important views on a component that we create
[15:11:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> increasingly, they will become more and more visible
[15:11:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and will show, as jessm is prone to say
[15:11:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> components in their underwear
[15:11:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and also in formalwear
[15:11:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Then I guess we have these things that sit somewhat awkwardly
[15:11:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> these "integration demos"
[15:11:59 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> if i'm remembered for nothing else, i will be fulfilled
[15:12:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but we use them a lot to show what we mean by, say, UI Options
[15:12:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> every time I do a demo of "what is Infusion?" I end up showing the Sakai integration demo of UI Options
[15:12:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Sometimes even while holding a laptop above my head (tongue)
[15:12:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Regrettable (tongue)
[15:12:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Well, that's the point of Floe 0.1
[15:13:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> We'll be able to show it really working in the context of a really working website
[15:13:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess then there's a category of "quick, show me" sorts of examples
[15:13:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Uploader.html and UIOptions.html currently sort of fit this bill
[15:13:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I try to think of, on the other hand, the components folder as containing only stuff that should be put into production
[15:14:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Does that make sense?
[15:14:33 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[15:15:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So that's the basis of my attempt to argue about these kinds of example pages
[15:15:13 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> if I remember correctly, though, we were thinking of a development workflow where people could just open up the template (for lack of a better word) and see it working
[15:15:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> the argument back is "we need them. where else do we put them?"
[15:15:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> michelled: Bosmon2 point is that this is nice, but a performance problem
[15:15:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> So, perhaps an important top-level division is between "demos in the hands of a designer", and "demos in the hands of a developer"?
[15:15:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I think
[15:15:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: Yes, that's right
[15:15:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> So, should we decide whether the second category should be empty or not?
[15:16:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I'd be happy to +1 that second category not being empty
[15:16:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Ok
[15:16:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> The question is, where does it go?
[15:16:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> So, we are homing in on the issue (smile)
[15:16:29 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> "it"?
[15:16:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Do you think it would be problematic for the 2 files to just be side-by-side?
[15:16:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> the second category
[15:16:48 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> In the component's "html" directory?
[15:17:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> e.g. uploader.html and uploaderTemplate.html
[15:17:22 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I don't see a problem with them being elsewhere
[15:17:28 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> except for a communication issue
[15:17:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess I'm arguing that they shouldn't be there in the component's html directory
[15:17:52 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> What other place would you like them?
[15:17:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I don't know
[15:17:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> that's the problem (tongue)
[15:18:06 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> demos/underwear (tongue)
[15:18:06 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I find our file tree fairly fragmented as it is
[15:18:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jessm: We're sort of making a developer-y mess here
[15:18:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> I'd prefer not to create a 4th place to look for things
[15:18:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I would appeal to jameswy or jhung, but they're gone
[15:18:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Right now I know to look in demos, tests, and components
[15:18:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2: I agree
[15:18:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Thankfully we recently axed some 4th category of thing I no longer remember the name of
[15:19:08 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> And I would prefer that such a thing didn't come backa again (tongue)
[15:19:20 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> springboards
[15:19:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> yeah!
[15:19:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Them
[15:19:32 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> They are not missed
[15:21:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lol
[15:21:51 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> mayhem!
[15:21:51 CDT(-0500)] * anastasiac notices the conversation is about demos, and so is catching up
[15:21:54 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> what'd i miss?
[15:21:59 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i heard someone say 'mess'
[15:22:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jessm, anastasiac: We're talking about a certain sort of a demo
[15:22:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I had summarized to Bosmon2 and michelled that we're working really hard to get to the point of really hot demos
[15:22:28 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: should i just say "talk to james and jon?" (wink)
[15:22:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jessm: Perhaps
[15:22:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Demos that are carefully crafted by designers
[15:22:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> and that show all the many different configurations of a component
[15:23:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So when we say "Infusion has flexible components," the demos show that flexibility
[15:23:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> jessm: Correct so far?
[15:23:32 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> Hi guys
[15:23:34 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> mmmhmmm
[15:23:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So we have a category of demos that developers need
[15:23:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Things that don't fit into unit tests
[15:23:53 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> hi lahabana
[15:23:55 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> lahabana: hi
[15:23:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but that we need to maintain for testing and verification
[15:24:06 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> yes
[15:24:12 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: i'm following so far
[15:24:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> The question is really, where do they fit in our world?
[15:24:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Clearly we want to really highlight the hot demos
[15:24:45 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: "there's an app for that"
[15:24:49 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> no, just kidding
[15:24:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> And sort of hide away the nerdy demos
[15:25:02 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark_, "crafted by designers" and "show all the many different configurations" sounds a bit like what we've been calling "marketing demos"
[15:25:08 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> we have, in our latest thinking about demos and docs and web, a space for such testable demos
[15:25:12 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> but we don't want to hide them away too well - they are the sorts of things that people like athena want to see
[15:25:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> anastasiac: Right--I might argue the term, but exactly that
[15:25:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yes
[15:25:47 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> our intention for those demos is to put them front and centre on the Infusion website, and have links to them in the tech docs
[15:25:48 CDT(-0500)] <athena> demos! i likes them!
[15:25:55 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: Bosmon2 i imagine you two just need to have a look at the latest web planning
[15:26:08 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: can you show them a link?
[15:26:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> all our questions will be answered!
[15:26:13 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> but we encourage feedback on that idea!
[15:26:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> thanks, jessm
[15:26:22 CDT(-0500)] * anastasiac looks for link
[15:26:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I guess, today, the closest thing we've got to this is "standalone-demos"
[15:26:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> which we have been actively trying to delete, right?
[15:27:22 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> the mockups are here: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Fluid+style+suggest+and+experimentation#Fluidstylesuggestandexperimentation-FluidInfusionsubsite%28fluidproject.org%2Finfusion%29
[15:27:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> cool, thanks
[15:27:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> (this page is getting unweildy, with too many wireframes)
[15:28:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> my hope is that for most components, we'll include a few demos, showing the same component but with varying configuration, to showcase the flexibility
[15:28:09 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: the bummer is that they haven't been updated to incorporate some of the feedback we gave re: demos
[15:28:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I want these wireframes (smile)
[15:29:38 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark_: I disagree - I think developers will want to see these
[15:29:42 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> the infusion page demos (market-y) and the developer guide demos (underpants)
[15:29:51 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> the lightening bolt is under debate (wink)
[15:29:54 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, yes: I'm thinking of having functional examples in the tech docs, on a one-demo-per-option idea, to demonstrate just what each option does
[15:30:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> michelled and Bosmon2: So are we sort of talking about underpants demos?
[15:30:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Things that are just a basic instance of the component, all by its lonesome?
[15:30:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Yes, I think so
[15:30:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I really miss getting those wiki 24-hr updates... I would have been following these designs more closely (sad)
[15:30:48 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> me too
[15:30:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> anastasiac: You think so?
[15:31:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> The current UIOptions.html and Uploader.html "templates" are the key examples
[15:31:16 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> that's my thought, but I'm open to criticism
[15:31:28 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> I was wondering if someone could give a little more info about The Video Player project for Gsoc I had a look at it and through the git rep you give ... but I'd like to have a little more info if possible...
[15:31:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> this would be in addition to tutorial type stuff
[15:31:52 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> plz
[15:31:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lahabana: Sure, I'm the mentor for that GSoC project.
[15:32:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> What more can I tell you about it?
[15:32:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Any specific questions or things that aren't clear?
[15:32:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Or would you just like an overview?
[15:32:46 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes an overview would be nice
[15:33:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, HTML5 video is really starting to catch on
[15:33:10 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes
[15:33:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> all the latest versions of the major browsers are shipping support for it
[15:33:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> There are a lot of video players out there in the world that use HTML5 video
[15:33:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but some users are being left behind
[15:33:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> there's currently no solid support for captioning in the HTML5 video spec
[15:34:00 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ok I see
[15:34:23 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> so it's making a new videoPlayer with easy and powerful captioning?
[15:34:35 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon2, colinclark: the plan for the tech docs underpants demos is to start with the plain-jane component, straight out of the box, defaults only, and show that: no bells and whistles. Then add to that other demos showing how the component changes when you start to customize the options
[15:34:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> That's the starting point, lahabana
[15:34:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> But there's more
[15:34:55 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes ?
[15:35:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Captions help a variety of people... obviously, people who are deaf. But also people who can't hear the soundtrack for whatever reason--no speakers in their computer, or they're studying in the library, or whatever.
[15:35:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> It will also be helpful for some users to be able to get a transcript of the video
[15:35:35 CDT(-0500)] * jessm prefers captions
[15:35:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Perhaps the video is some interesting learning material or an inspiring speech, and they want to follow along very closely
[15:36:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> it would be great to be able to, in sync with the video, highlight the transcript
[15:36:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Also audio descriptions for people who are blind or can't see the video for whatever reason
[15:36:20 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ok
[15:36:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Sound recordings of a person describing what's going on the scene
[15:36:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> synchronized to video
[15:36:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> So, to roll those features into a really good video player that is also really easy to customize
[15:36:53 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ok and that could be integrated in the UI of the player
[15:37:02 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> jsut like it is in TVs for eg?
[15:37:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> yep, exactly, lahabana
[15:37:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> With the Web, we can probably do even more cool stuff than a TV
[15:37:24 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ho I see looks like a really good project
[15:37:29 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> obviously (smile)
[15:37:48 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> is there like a particular mentor I can contact?
[15:37:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I'm glad you think so
[15:37:55 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I'm the mentor for the project
[15:38:01 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ho ok then
[15:38:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> but as you've seen, there are lots of people here who can help out
[15:38:22 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes
[15:38:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> If you're interested, you can put together a project plan and submit it to GSoC
[15:38:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> all the details are on Google's site, I think
[15:38:40 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes I would love so
[15:38:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I'm happy to answer any questions as they come up
[15:38:49 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes I've been looking through for a bit
[15:38:54 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ok thx a lot
[15:39:14 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> I guess that the Player would be prefered to be based on Infusion no?
[15:39:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> That would be ideal, yes
[15:39:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> We've started on the code for a player, as you've no doubt seen in the Github repo
[15:39:58 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> Ok I've never used it but I'm gonna have a deeper look
[15:40:07 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> Yes I did have cloned and look at it
[15:40:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> great
[15:40:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> I can answer any questions about the code
[15:40:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> it hasn't been well documented
[15:40:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> we built it very quickly as a prototype
[15:40:23 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes quite
[15:40:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> But it does lay out the structure for a very loosely-coupled video player
[15:40:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> with lots of optoins
[15:40:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> easy to customize, etc.
[15:41:05 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> ok
[15:41:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> anastasiac: So if we were to get a head start on these bare-bones demos, where would you recommend we put them today?
[15:42:06 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> hey back
[15:42:15 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> sorry accidently closed the app
[15:42:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> happens to me all the time
[15:42:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark_, I did have this discussion with the king. my first thought was in the docs repo, but he thought they would be better distributed right with the code, in a folder sibling to the "demos" folder - I'm starting calling it "examples" but i'm not sure I like that
[15:42:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> ok
[15:43:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Bosmon2, michelled: Are you averse to introducing such a thing?
[15:43:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lahabana: You'd of course have the freedom to rewrite and refactor as you see fit. But using Infusion would be great, because we'd love to distribute it as part of the project.
[15:43:47 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I think the biggest problem is naming. I wouldn't know the difference between a demo or an example
[15:43:51 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark_: one of the issues anastasiac and i talked about is whether or not to pull these demos up while we're still working out doc platform – whether or not there are reasons to try to coordinate
[15:44:08 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Bosmon2: I've completed the integration tests for the uploader and they're all on my branch.
[15:44:08 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> https://github.com/mlam/infusion/commits/FLUID-4163
[15:44:09 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled, yes, naming is always hard. i don't know what to call it
[15:44:43 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> sorry did the same again (tonight I've got a massive mixing up issue between ctrl x & ctrl w) (smile)
[15:45:08 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Bosmon2: I've made a pull request . I hope you got the pull request . I tried the new @ notation
[15:45:52 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> for infusion don't worry I'm almost up to discovering new things
[15:46:33 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> I think I'm gonna have a deeper look into the code and have a look through infusion
[15:46:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> Thanks for the tests, mlam - I need to go to a meeting now but I will look at them soon
[15:46:55 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> np, thanks Bosmon2
[15:47:27 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> and I'll also think about what could exactly be done, I was wondering do you have any coding rules? and if yes where could I get them?
[15:47:34 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon2> In the meantime, could you just merge them up with the commit I just made to the core framework and make sure they still work? (tongue)
[15:50:40 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> haha ok.
[15:51:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> lahabana: Sounds great
[15:51:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> We do have some code standards, yes
[15:51:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> Let me find the link
[15:51:38 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> cheers
[15:52:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Coding+and+Commit+Standards
[15:52:22 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> thx
[15:52:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Contributing+Code
[15:52:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark_> You'll find lots more stuff in the wiki
[15:53:08 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> yes sorry should have looked first there (smile)