fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-03-08

[08:37:54 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: i was testing out my test page and was noticing that it was performing properly in ie under all cases, even the no-fix case
[08:38:04 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> do you know what i need to change to make it fail in ie
[08:39:29 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o you mean fl-fix wasn't causing problems? yeah i think it's fine until a mixture of different css causes scrolling on the containers. i'm not exactly sure how to reproduce it but gary would know.
[08:40:11 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: well i sort of meant that in ie i don't even need a fix at all for the elements to be contained within the parent
[08:40:42 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o that's odd....
[08:40:45 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> but i did notice that there are differences between the fixes if i put it in a situation where there is some overflow
[08:41:04 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> here's the markup https://github.com/jobara/infusion/blob/FLUID-4023/src/webapp/tests/manual-tests/html/fl-fix.html
[08:41:13 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> but in ff etc there it doesn't contain the floats?
[08:41:22 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> -there
[08:41:22 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> here's the css
[08:41:23 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> https://github.com/jobara/infusion/blob/FLUID-4023/src/webapp/tests/manual-tests/css/fl-fix.css
[08:41:30 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> yes.. in safari and ff it does not contain the floats
[08:42:48 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o i'm not sure. maybe ie does something weird... don't know off hand
[08:43:10 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: okay.. thanks
[08:43:18 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> i'll keep trying
[08:43:49 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o what happens to styledElement
[08:44:06 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> you just add the "clearfix" class ?
[08:44:51 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> and cssFixApplier ?
[08:54:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Wow, that feedback from Karl and sheppy is really, really helpful, eh?
[08:55:58 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: sorry.. here's the js as well https://github.com/jobara/infusion/blob/FLUID-4023/src/webapp/tests/manual-tests/js/fl-fix.js
[08:56:22 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> basically it just lets you flip between the various fix options
[08:58:29 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o i wonder if IE is doing weird caching thing during the flipping. can you try just a plain html page without js?
[08:58:38 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, yes, they were very helpful
[08:58:59 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi sure..
[08:59:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Do you have time to chat through the WordPress scenario a bit?
[08:59:23 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> sure, colinclark
[09:00:03 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: no difference
[09:00:18 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o and cache cleared and all that
[09:00:26 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> weird, not sure!
[09:01:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Sorry, one sec
[09:01:18 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> np
[09:01:26 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
[09:02:04 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o "This float-enclosing behavior in IE can also be 'toggled' off again just by hovering of links within the container, if that hovering alters either the link background or one of several other CSS properties"
[09:02:34 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> sounds like IE still does weird stuff, and needs clear fix
[09:02:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Okay, so Karl's repsonse was really fascinating to me
[09:03:14 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: that is wierd.. thanks.. i'll read through this and see if i can make a better test page
[09:03:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "One weakness is the high barrier to entry for people contributing to the documentation. [ed. note: not sure I see a high barrier?]"
[09:03:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, they seem to be using WordPress in a pretty idiosyncratic way
[09:03:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> They're using it as an XML document management system
[09:04:06 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so, instead of authoring plain old HTML with it, they're authoring custom XML
[09:04:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> editing their own tags by hand
[09:04:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> And then using XSLT to convert that custom markup into a particular HTML structure
[09:05:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I mentioned yesterday that the idea of WordPress and an XML database seemed strange to me
[09:05:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and this confirms that it's actively a custom workflow
[09:05:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> WordPress' database is a fairly simple relational structure, representing "entries"
[09:06:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, from what Karl is saying, the main things they get from WordPress are:
[09:06:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> 1. Search
[09:06:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> 2. Category management
[09:06:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> 3. Roles and permissions
[09:06:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> does that seem about right?
[09:07:02 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: I pushed a few UI Options changes up to my Github fork https://github.com/colinbdclark/infusion
[09:07:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I spent about half an hour last night to make UI Options load its template automatically on startup
[09:07:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Simplified the demo code substantially (no more global variables)
[09:07:44 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> sounds right - I suspect you're more familiar with WordPress than I am, and so have been able to add more knowledge to what Karl said.
[09:07:46 CST(-0600)] <michelled> yay (smile)
[09:07:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and fixed the "click twice" bug on the Edit Appearance button
[09:08:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: So, can you elaborate on your editor's note there?
[09:08:05 CST(-0600)] <michelled> what was wrong there?
[09:08:10 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark ^
[09:08:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: It used jQuery.toggle(), but UI Options can also be rolled up by the Save/Cancel button
[09:08:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> meaning the toggle state was out of sync with the state of the sliding panel
[09:08:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it was an easy fix
[09:08:48 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cool
[09:09:06 CST(-0600)] <michelled> colinclark: do you want me to look at your changes and then push them to project repo?
[09:09:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: You're pretty experienced with WordPress
[09:09:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and it was your beer choice yesterday
[09:10:49 CST(-0600)] <jessm> colinclark: i can imagine it being tried at least in said out-o-box config
[09:11:01 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: To be fair, it's possible that they wrote their own "rich text editor" plugin for WP that helps with custom tagging
[09:11:06 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i'm envisioning some subset of our docs getting plunked in
[09:11:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I think my understanding of how jQuery is using wordpress was incomplete - this conversation is very helpful
[09:11:18 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> it sounds like some of the benefits I'd imagined are, in fact, not present
[09:11:37 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> What are those perceived benefits, in particular, anastasiac?
[09:12:13 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I thought wordpress was being used as the "staging area," and then the content was being converted to HTML for static access - sounds like that's not thecase
[09:13:04 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: you can do a kind of poor man's staging in WP i'm pretty sure – just leave something unpublished
[09:13:09 CST(-0600)] <heidi_> justin_o ah, interesting. it'd be good to investigate what's causing the scrollbars to appear with the overflow method... maybe ask gary?
[09:13:27 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i've used WP to do a french equivalent site to an English one – it's supah easy for translations
[09:13:29 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, can multiple authors edit something unpublished?
[09:13:37 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: i believe so
[09:13:42 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> ok, that would work
[09:13:42 CST(-0600)] <jessm> it's just a permissions thing
[09:13:53 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i'm tempted to just plunk one onto my bluehost site and try it out
[09:13:59 CST(-0600)] <jessm> but that's probably not the way we want to go
[09:14:15 CST(-0600)] <jessm> wp install, upgrade, plugins are supah easy too
[09:14:18 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> heidi_: okay, i wonder if athena knows
[09:14:21 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i like easy
[09:14:22 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so it doesn't offer versioning, but does allow staging, which is very helpful
[09:14:28 CST(-0600)] * athena looks up
[09:14:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: That Daniel Craig IWD video you tweeted is phenomenal
[09:14:39 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: we need to try it out to make sure it does this...
[09:14:44 CST(-0600)] <jessm> colinclark: isn't that coolio?!
[09:14:49 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, agreed
[09:14:54 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> athena: thanks, just wondering if you happen to know about the issues unicon reported about fl-fix
[09:14:59 CST(-0600)] <jessm> for others: http://youtu.be/gkp4t5NYzVM
[09:14:59 CST(-0600)] <athena> hah, no (smile)
[09:15:06 CST(-0600)] <athena> you'd definitely want to talk to gary about that
[09:15:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Yeah, the staging part is definitely something WP will have no problem with
[09:15:20 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> athena: (smile) okay.. thanks.. i'll track him down
[09:15:25 CST(-0600)] <athena> (smile)
[09:15:39 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: let's kick up a wp site and plunk some docs into it, eh?
[09:15:42 CST(-0600)] <athena> my role in that task is solely repeatedly poking to hope someone follows up on it
[09:15:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Generating static resources from the WordPress schema is something else, but perhaps not impossible even if we don't use a custom XML/XSLT combo
[09:15:49 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: +1
[09:15:50 CST(-0600)] * athena is mostly a backend developer
[09:16:08 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: is there a clump of code that might give us a good test while still being a subset of all?
[09:17:08 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> athena: the poking seems to have worked (smile)
[09:17:12 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, jessm and anastasiac, if we were to revisit our conversation from yesterday...
[09:17:15 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, we should probably start by trying to see how far we can get without custom xml/xslt
[09:17:18 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: there are plugins to export WP as PDF
[09:17:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it seems like WordPress is still on the radar as an option
[09:17:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> MindTouch is still hanging in there, too
[09:17:33 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, do you mean a clump of docs pages?
[09:17:36 CST(-0600)] <jessm> +1 on see how far we can get w/o customizing
[09:18:01 CST(-0600)] <jessm> yes, sorry not code, docs
[09:18:02 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I thought Sheppy made a comment that really echoed our situation, too:
[09:18:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "We encourage community editing and writing. There's simply too much content for a two-person writing team to keep it all up. Plus with such a wide range of content for our site (from basic stuff like HTML and CSS to crazy-complicated stuff like how to add code to the Midas editor that's embedded in the Gecko runtime), there's no way for two writers to learn enough to cover everything without encouraging others to help."
[09:18:26 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, at very least, we've got WP and MT
[09:18:33 CST(-0600)] <jessm> colinclark: we have a mediawiki in ILH
[09:18:37 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, yes, we should pick some representative pages of different types of content
[09:18:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Yep, I was just going to say
[09:18:43 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> and try the same content in MindTouch
[09:18:49 CST(-0600)] <jessm> yes
[09:18:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Probably worth considering MediaWiki since it's a known entity
[09:19:03 CST(-0600)] <jessm> what about markdown?
[09:19:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess the only other thing we might want to consider or compare it to is the Markdown option
[09:19:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> ha
[09:19:12 CST(-0600)] <jessm> jinx!
[09:19:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's a very different workflow
[09:19:32 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We've basically got two models here
[09:19:32 CST(-0600)] <jessm> and i'm still bitter about moveable type
[09:19:34 CST(-0600)] <jessm> is that reasonable?
[09:19:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> 1. Dynamic and easy to contribute: MindTouch, MediaWiki and WordPress
[09:20:02 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yes, markdown offers the versioning and staging area, but I think we'd need some good templates
[09:20:04 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: Probably not
[09:20:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> of course, that's true for all cases
[09:20:16 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> 2. Static and versioned, managed through the workflow of Github
[09:20:19 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i want a donut too
[09:20:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> (Markdown)
[09:20:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: The reason I wouldn't sweat MovableType and Markdown is because Markdown is so widely used
[09:20:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> no one is going to mess with it
[09:20:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> there are parsers in tons of languages
[09:21:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> even JavaScript
[09:21:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Why am I at home when there are donuts there?
[09:21:23 CST(-0600)] <jessm> rt
[09:21:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, anastasiac, I think it might be worth contrasting the strengths and weakness of the managed vs. collaborative models
[09:22:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> My personal feeling is that Sheppy's comment about MDN resonates with us a lot, but on a smaller scale
[09:23:00 CST(-0600)] <jessm> and it reminds us that we need to look at docs with code embedded in our test
[09:23:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Documentation is one of these precarious values, so we may well want to emphasize collaboration however we can. Keep it separate from the complexity of knowing how to use Git, etc.
[09:23:15 CST(-0600)] <jessm> +1
[09:23:33 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The other advantage to keeping docs out of the realm of source code is that it reminds us that they are a central part of our Web experience
[09:23:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> as opposed to just something for developers
[09:23:42 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> yes, collaboration would rank higher in priorities than versioning
[09:23:59 CST(-0600)] <jessm> donuts rank highest
[09:24:51 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> one issue I've been contemplating most recently is managing the issue of embedding code inside pages for functional examples (a la jQuery-style small demos)
[09:25:02 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> the integration of the code itself into whatever the docs management system is
[09:25:12 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> and supporting maintenance of that code
[09:25:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Can you elaborate?
[09:26:20 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> well, for example: we have some older working examples on the Confluence wiki right now
[09:26:24 CST(-0600)] * anastasiac digs up urls
[09:27:19 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> iirc, the code for those is simply typed into the confluence editing page, wrapped in an <html> tag
[09:27:27 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> e.g. http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Sorting+Lists+Demo
[09:28:02 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> this doesn't seem ideal from a maintenance perspective; my gut says code should be in git
[09:28:08 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> but I could be overcomplicating things...
[09:28:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: No, I completely agree
[09:28:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We should not be hand editing code for examples into a wiki--breakage will occur
[09:29:26 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so whatever system we choose, we'll have to work out the workflow for getting code from git into our docs
[09:29:50 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, I imagine we've got two choices
[09:29:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> iFrames or some fanciness
[09:30:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Where fanciness is something like our Screen Navigator component
[09:30:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> In other words, we store demos and code snippets in a code repository where it belongs, and deploy it to a web server
[09:30:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and then we need some mechanism for inlining them into the wiki
[09:31:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Does that seem about right, anastasiac?
[09:31:19 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> that's pretty much what I was thinking - but more from the how to inline them in a given docs platform perspective
[09:31:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Can you elaborate?
[09:31:35 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> i.e. we need to make sure it's doable without too much difficulty, that's all
[09:32:30 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I want to actually do it in wordpress to convince myself it can be done, and in MindTouch, and in MediaWiki,e tc
[09:32:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> iFrames are pretty well established
[09:32:57 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> in any HTML
[09:33:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> not awesome, but I think we can find a way to work with them
[09:33:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> michelled: To answer your question from awhile ago, I'm not quite ready for a code review and push for the UI Options fixes
[09:33:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> there are so many stray UI Options demos floating around, I need to make sure they're all happy
[09:34:00 CST(-0600)] <michelled> ok colinclark
[09:34:02 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and tweak the tests
[09:34:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it's probably only a few minutes work
[09:34:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and then I'll ping you
[09:34:19 CST(-0600)] <michelled> cool
[09:34:24 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but I think I'll come into the office in the hope of scoring a donut first
[09:34:41 CST(-0600)] <michelled> (smile)
[09:35:04 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: jamon: it sounds like we're close to set-it-up and try on mediawiki, wordpress, and mindtouch, eh?
[09:35:17 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> justin_o: while in the wait of mlam's adjustment on uploader and colinclark's review on the half-finished new image gallery demo, what else can i help with?
[09:35:26 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, yes, that would be ideal
[09:35:52 CST(-0600)] <mlam> colinclark: I've made a pull request for FLUID-4134 – adding XHR as an argument to the onFileSuccess and onFileError event handlers
[09:35:55 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> cindyli: let me take a look at what's needed for 1.4
[09:36:04 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: jamon: i'd imagine this will require some close chatting between you two
[09:36:04 CST(-0600)] <mlam> cindyli: I've just made a pull request for those changes
[09:36:17 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> mlam: that's quick. thanks
[09:36:25 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> indeed. luckily, we're in the same building
[09:36:28 CST(-0600)] <mlam> np, small changes.
[09:37:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> though I'm not sure about jamon's availability right now - everytime i've seen him in the last day or two, he's been working on the video wall, jessm
[09:37:26 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> cindyli: i'm looking at http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&amp;jqlQuery=project+%3D+FLUID+AND+fixVersion+%3D+%221.4%22+AND+resolution+%3D+Unresolved+ORDER+BY+priority+DESC%2C+key+DESC&amp;mode=hide
[09:38:26 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, my plan for this week was proof-of-concept functional examples for progress or inline edit, and fss - I'm thinking these pilot tests should take priority
[09:38:34 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> justin_o: ok
[09:38:44 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> cindyli: i'm wondering if you'd like to look into http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-4132
[09:38:45 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: yeppers – you've got it right
[09:38:49 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> setting up working examples in confluence right now is just going to have to be re-done
[09:39:04 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: and maybe they become the docs we test with?
[09:39:05 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I can start the process with the pilots
[09:39:33 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> cindyli: thanks
[09:39:58 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, not sure if we're thinking the same thing: I don't think it's work developing functional examples in confluence
[09:40:07 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> are we thinking the same?
[09:40:14 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: ah, yes, good point
[09:40:19 CST(-0600)] <jessm> i like it
[09:40:21 CST(-0600)] <jessm> bird killing
[09:40:28 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I will need to test embedding demos in each of the pilots
[09:40:33 CST(-0600)] <jessm> yes
[09:40:39 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so I'll try it there
[09:40:53 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I could just point to existing demos that are already served
[09:41:10 CST(-0600)] <cindyli> justin_o: looking into ...
[09:41:10 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> or I could actually work out serving up more relevant examples
[09:41:24 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> that I started working on yesterday
[09:42:37 CST(-0600)] <jessm> anastasiac: does that mean you'll locally install these apps?
[09:42:56 CST(-0600)] <jessm> no, i think i'm misunderstanding
[09:43:00 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, that's something I'll work out with jamon
[09:43:05 CST(-0600)] <jessm> yes, great
[09:43:26 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jessm, the actual demo code will have to be deployed on a server somewhere, and the docs pages will link to them
[09:43:32 CST(-0600)] <jessm> yes
[09:43:48 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> so if I'm going to test with these new one-option-at-a-time examples I've started, I'll need to get them served up
[09:44:34 CST(-0600)] * anastasiac is off to find jamon
[10:24:39 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> colinclark, athena: I've update my test page for FLUID-4023 https://github.com/jobara/infusion/tree/FLUID-4023/src/webapp/tests/manual-tests
[10:24:49 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> it now shows the scroll bars with the fl-fix
[10:25:14 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> i still have to try to recreate the ie issue though...
[10:25:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> justin_o: This is such a model of Infusionic coding (smile)
[10:25:53 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> In 75 lines of code, 25 of them are defaults
[10:26:17 CST(-0600)] <athena> passed that on to gary (smile)
[10:29:04 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> thanks
[10:29:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: So, for the record, Markdown was actually written by the infamous John Gruber
[10:29:25 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> No doubt a hero of jameswy
[10:29:27 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> (tongue)
[10:30:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We might well be able to use Markdown as a simpler conversion workflow
[10:30:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> in WP
[10:36:02 CST(-0600)] <jessm> so, anastasiac colinclark maybe we should take a look at Markdown too?
[10:45:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: Perhaps, yes
[10:46:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I think it would be really useful to have a clear statement about the reason why we're interested in each option
[10:46:14 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the chart tells us something, but it doesn't tell us why it's an interesting solution
[10:46:22 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> fluid-everyone: standup updates - Just going to mention that i've been working on FLUID-4023. Also i'll be going offline at 2:30
[10:46:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> so I don't fully have the perspective on "why markdown?"
[10:46:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: You might be able to elaborate on that
[10:49:10 CST(-0600)] <jhung> anastasiac: do you have time today to meet to talk about technical documentation landing pages?
[10:51:00 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> How is FLUID-4023 going, justin_o? I really like your test code.
[10:51:03 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jhung, possibly
[10:51:14 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> i have to leave a bit early (4pm-ish)
[10:51:29 CST(-0600)] <jhung> np.
[10:51:44 CST(-0600)] <jhung> How about 2:30p? or maybe earlier? my sched is pretty open.
[10:51:51 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> and jamon is going to be working on setting up the test docs platforms between now and 2pm
[10:52:11 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jhung, how about earlier than that? say 12:30 or 1pm?
[10:52:25 CST(-0600)] <jhung> 12:30p sounds good.
[10:52:26 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> colinclark: thanks.. it's coming along... i still need to adjust the test page a bit to showcase some ie specific issues, i guess the one from the link that heidi_ sent along
[10:53:41 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, jessm, to answer the question "why markdown:" 1) ease of editing (simple wiki-style mark-up, easy to learn and do); 2) separate "staging area" (in git) and public docs; 3) provides versioned docs (tagged in git and "released" with the code)
[10:54:28 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Okay
[10:54:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, interestingly enough, only one of those features are of Markdown proper, right?
[10:55:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> #2 and #3 are really just provide by a version control system (Git, in this case, but it really could be any)
[10:55:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> "provided by," that is
[10:55:36 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> right - they would be advantages of straight HTML as well, or any other structured mark-up
[10:55:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, in other words, plain old static HTML in Git would also satisfy #2 and #3, right?
[10:55:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cool
[10:55:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes
[10:58:33 CST(-0600)] <mlam> colinclark: could you review the changes in my branch with regards to fileType inclusion? https://github.com/mlam/infusion/tree/FLUID-3886
[10:58:59 CST(-0600)] <mlam> colinclark: could you also review my 2 pull requests? https://github.com/mlam/infusion/tree/FLUID-4078 and https://github.com/mlam/infusion/tree/FLUID-4134
[10:59:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yep
[10:59:08 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> thanks, mlam
[10:59:09 CST(-0600)] <mlam> FLUID-4134 is the one cindyli needs
[10:59:11 CST(-0600)] <mlam> thanks colinclark
[11:04:11 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> So, anastasiac and jessm, I guess the last question we should ask is, "what advantage would using Markdown (or some other structured format) in WordPress provide us, above and beyond plain old HTML?"
[11:06:00 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, hm... well, I supposed Markdown might be easier for some folks to use than HTML, but WordPress offers a nice wysiwyg editor, so I'm not sure how much of an advantage that is
[11:06:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I guess the other thing it might provide is a simpler path to being able to render out static versions of the documentation site
[11:07:18 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> simpler than straight html?
[11:08:18 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Don't you think?
[11:09:18 CST(-0600)] <jessm> presumably that's why it exists though i've never tried it
[11:09:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Yeah, that's exactly why it exists
[11:09:51 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> you can think of it as a lightweight alternative to XML/XSLT
[11:10:10 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> the latter being technologies desperately in need of lighter alternatives (tongue)
[11:10:19 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by using markdown in wordpress, or by rendering out static versions - could you elaborate, colinclark?
[11:10:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> hmm
[11:10:40 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Well, it's like what Karl was saying jQuery is doing for their documentation
[11:11:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Only instead of XML and XSLT, we're talking Markdown instead
[11:11:32 CST(-0600)] <jamon> if using markdown, again a plug for ikiwiki
[11:11:41 CST(-0600)] <jamon> let me add a column for it to anastasiac's page
[11:11:52 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> ok, but with respect to rendering out static versions: those would be html, right? if we work in html in wordpress, there's no conversion necessary; if we work in markdown, we have to convert. how is that simpler?
[11:12:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jamon: I don't think we're going to go with ikiwiki
[11:12:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We chatted a bit about it in the channel yesterday
[11:12:37 CST(-0600)] <jamon> consensus was?
[11:12:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> The version control-backed database is cool, but it's pretty low on the user factors
[11:13:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We'd prefer to use a tool our friends are using so we can work alongside them
[11:13:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and so on
[11:13:38 CST(-0600)] <jamon> ah i see, not something a theme would help with, makes sense
[11:13:44 CST(-0600)] <jamon> unfortunate
[11:13:47 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> probably not
[11:13:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> yes, it is
[11:13:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Other wikis should really do this Git-backed thing
[11:13:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> it would help a lot
[11:14:42 CST(-0600)] <jamon> mindtouch, before i get started with it, scales worse than confluence (mono app)
[11:14:52 CST(-0600)] <jamon> what differentiates it from confluence colinclark?
[11:15:15 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> What differentiates MindTouch from Confluence, jamon?
[11:15:30 CST(-0600)] <jamon> seems to have the same quasi-open ecosystem around it?
[11:15:34 CST(-0600)] <jamon> yes colinclark
[11:15:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jamon: First differentiator is that it's actually open source, not quasi-open
[11:16:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Though the more important one is that it's specifically designed for documentation
[11:16:19 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> rather than being a general-purpose wiki
[11:16:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> You might be familiar with Mozilla's Developer Network: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/
[11:16:42 CST(-0600)] <jessm> it also seems that it passed some "cursory Jaws tests"
[11:16:42 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> It's a MindTouch instance
[11:17:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: So, there's two aspects to the argument of HTML vs. Markdown
[11:17:21 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> to be clear, this isn't my own personal argument
[11:17:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm just looking at their strengths and weaknesses
[11:17:38 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> a Markdown proponent would say that it's much easier to edit
[11:17:44 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> no need to worry about closing tags, etc.
[11:18:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> fairly closely aligned to the sort of formatting geeks like us already do with a text editor
[11:18:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> and so on
[11:18:10 CST(-0600)] <jamon> for sure, just put a big flag beside scaling mindtouch, that mdn site loads as slowly as our wiki, and i've worked on deki instances in the past that hit a performance wall
[11:18:33 CST(-0600)] <jamon> in any case, working on setting up the short listed systems
[11:18:34 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> MDN is a fair bit faster than our wiki
[11:18:38 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, sure - that's one of the advantages I identified
[11:18:48 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But yes, scalability is something to consider while we're playing around with these, jamon
[11:19:05 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> While we're on the subject of our wiki, jamon, I still haven't received a 24-hour update from the wiki
[11:19:07 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> has anyone else?
[11:19:13 CST(-0600)] <jamon> they haven't
[11:19:17 CST(-0600)] <jamon> ticket is in with atlassian
[11:21:57 CST(-0600)] <jessm> jamon: he's managing their wiki – i wonder if you can exchange notes? his wiki is fast and sends me an email every day - not even sure what version he's running, but it seems worth chatting with him to see
[11:22:33 CST(-0600)] <jessm> he's jmartinez1 in #collectionspace
[11:23:55 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: ...than transforming HTML into some other chunk of HTML
[11:24:40 CST(-0600)] * anastasiac is clearly having a thick-skull day, and apologizes
[11:24:49 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> colinclark, why transform the HTML at all?
[11:24:54 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> urg
[11:25:23 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> To do things like inject repetitive navigation, etc.
[11:25:45 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Remember, a WordPress entry is just the blob of markup that represents the post itself
[11:25:46 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> does wordpress not offer things for that?
[11:25:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Well, it certainly does for a dynamic environment
[11:26:17 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> In other words, if you access WordPress pages through WordPress, that's all taken care of
[11:26:29 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> but you seem keen on the advantage of being able to generate static content that can be versioned, etc.
[11:28:25 CST(-0600)] <justin_o> fluid-everyone: we should probably update this page soon too, since the move to git http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Coding+and+Commit+Standards
[11:28:39 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> urg, indeed. I'm clearly having a bad brain day. for some reason, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this, and I'm sincerely sorry. let me try to gather my thoughts.
[11:28:45 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I'm clearly not understanding how wordpress might be used. I had the impression from yesterday's conversation that wordpress is actually being used to serve up the jQuery docs
[11:28:58 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> probably from the fact that it's offering the search capabilities
[11:29:00 CST(-0600)] <jamon> anastasiac, colinclark, would pulling from wordpress using json api and versioning that output work?
[11:29:03 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> if not wordpres, then, what?
[11:29:20 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: it is
[11:29:30 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm suggesting an option that would give you versioning as well
[11:29:41 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I actually think it's pretty unnecessary, myself
[11:29:58 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> But I'm following the path from "WordPress" to "Markdown" to its end
[11:30:10 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> it is certainly much less necessary if we have the capability to have draft pages
[11:31:37 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> and given that there is no system that will offer us everything that we want, we're going to have to give something up. If we have good community editing and the ability to stage docs and only publish them at release time, that really does offset the need for versioned docs
[11:32:23 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> I'm sure there are various export options in wordpress that we can explore for "snapshotting" docs if we want to
[11:32:33 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> shoot, late for a meeting
[11:33:08 CST(-0600)] <anastasiac> jhung, sorry: I'm here - let me know whenever you're ready
[11:33:39 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> anastasiac: I completely agree with you
[11:34:13 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> Which I think means we can toss Markdown from our shortlist unless we decide somehow that it's a much better style of markup for editing text (which I'm not sure it is)
[11:35:20 CST(-0600)] <jessm> colinclark: it brings up interesting pangs for an authoring environment...
[12:02:31 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> jessm: hey
[15:11:45 CST(-0600)] <jamon> colinclark: anastasiac isn't here, so asking you, mediawiki wants a copyright license for docs, options are "none, public domain, GFDL 1.2, GFDL 1.3, or various CC licenses"
[15:12:01 CST(-0600)] <jamon> which would you prefer? none for now?
[15:12:03 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> CC-BY
[15:12:22 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> We have a standard documentation license for the whole Fluid community
[15:12:43 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> This is the specific license we use: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ca/
[15:12:59 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> All of Fluid's licensing is documented on this wiki page: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Fluid+Licensing
[15:13:31 CST(-0600)] <jamon> is 3.0 CC-BY acceptable?
[15:13:45 CST(-0600)] <jamon> mediawiki isn't letting me pick 2.5, it redirects to the cc license chooser site
[15:14:39 CST(-0600)] <jamon> ah got it, picked canada, there isn't a 3.0 for us
[15:15:56 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> cool
[15:16:09 CST(-0600)] <colinclark> I'm sure 3.0 is fine, we just haven't taken the time to look and upgrade the license
[15:18:01 CST(-0600)] <jamon> yeah, i wouldn't have proceeded without 2.5 being an option