fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-03-31

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Last updated: Mar 31, 2010Version comment
31 min read

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[10:01:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: One last Deca licensing question if you have time
[10:01:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sure
[10:01:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The whole situation is at first straightforward and then gets a bit more subtle as I dive into it...
[10:02:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> but we're gonna be just fine with command line-level linking between programs
[10:02:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The key distinction is between creating an "aggregate" and a new program
[10:03:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Function-level calls and linkage between executables inevitably creates a new program
[10:03:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Using fork or exec to call another program generally doesn't.
[10:03:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The one exception they make involves evaluating the kind of data structures that pass between the programs
[10:04:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm assuming that in Decapod, we're basically running a command line program with a few standard arguments
[10:04:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The output of which is an image, which we either do something with or which we send to another program for processing.
[10:04:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is this correct?
[10:04:38 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[10:05:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is there ever a case where Decapod shares state or special data structures with:
[10:05:05 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> we aren't doing anything out of the ordinary - just using the standard options of the programs
[10:05:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1. OCRopus
[10:05:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. GPhoto
[10:05:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no, it's decapod that knows about state
[10:05:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok
[10:05:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We're cool
[10:05:39 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it just asks the other programs to do things for it
[10:05:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, there are no problems here.
[10:05:55 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> mpcutter: you there?
[10:06:16 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> cool
[10:06:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And, indeed, we should be quite free to redistribute a package that includes a variety of mixed-license libraries (such as OCRopus and GPhoto), as long as we respect the terms of each separate license.
[10:06:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So the real catch comes in the future...
[10:06:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> If we were to decide to link directly against, say, a Python API provided by OCRopus and GPhoto
[10:07:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Then we've got arguably conflicting dependencies--and remember that function calls denote a "one program"
[10:07:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That said, libgphoto is LGPL, so we'd probably be just fine even in that case
[10:08:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So jhung, michelled, and jessm: +1 on licensing for this Deca release
[10:08:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'll send an email with a bit of background reading
[10:08:50 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks - I guess we also need a license file somewhere
[10:09:45 EDT(-0400)] * jessm (~Jess@c-71-232-3-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[10:09:56 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> michelled: yes. It should go into multiple locations: wiki, googlecode side, svn source, hg repositories...
[10:10:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Definitely smart to create a file that lists all our dependencies and their licenses
[10:10:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Let's start by putting it together in the wiki, just to keep things simple
[10:10:43 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: yep. Then we can branch out from there.
[10:11:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: I guess your install documentation is actually the best starting point for a list of all dependenices
[10:11:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Again, the ones of key interest are the "top-level" dependencies
[10:11:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Which look to me like libgphoto, gphoto, and ocropus
[10:11:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just to be super-safe, I'm double checking all of OCRopus' dependencies
[10:11:47 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> does python and cherrypy count?
[10:11:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Yes, CherryPy counts
[10:12:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And any Python libraries we link against
[10:12:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> libtiff-tools
[10:12:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> imagemagick
[10:12:25 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> okay. We'll need to check those too.
[10:12:46 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> the server links in some image manipulation libraries, not sure if it's native python or a 3rd party.
[10:12:51 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jhung: sorry about moving the JIRAs - I totally didn't think about the documentation
[10:13:05 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> but in a way I think it's better that our first documentation will like stable JIRA numbers
[10:13:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Can you do me a favour?
[10:13:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Can you match this to a familiar license? I'm assuming it's BSD-ish. http://www.libtiff.org/misc.html
[10:13:32 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: yep
[10:13:41 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> michelled: np. Wasn't bad as I thought. Jira (thankfully) leaves a redirect behind. Just needed to change 1 wiki page... and not all of them as I feared. (big grin)
[10:15:08 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: so, just try to figure out which license it's most like?
[10:15:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: yep
[10:15:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[10:15:18 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> k
[10:15:42 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm, michelled, colinclark: I'll leave you guys to the licensing task. I'm going to continue proof reading the online documentation.
[10:15:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[10:15:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: go for it (smile)
[10:16:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> to whomever is writing the section in our README about third-party dependencies and their licenses...
[10:16:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here's a link to ImageMagick's own custom license, the "ImageMagick License": http://www.imagemagick.org/script/license.php
[10:16:54 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jamon: a heads up, we'll likely need to set up the Decapod demo server some time today.
[10:18:17 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jamon: we're just waiting for tags for the scripts the cherrypy server uses.
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[10:19:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, so jessm and michelled, here's my helpful little list of dependencies, IRC style:
[10:20:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> CherryPy | BSD | http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyLicense
[10:20:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ImageMagick | ImageMagick License | http://www.imagemagick.org/script/license.php
[10:21:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> OCRopus | Apache 2 | http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
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[10:22:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> libgphoto2 | LGPL | http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html
[10:22:13 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: so the license file will include both apache and ECL 2?
[10:22:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and then list the dependencies in the readme?
[10:22:31 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> is it ok to put the two licenses together?
[10:22:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> gphoto2 | GPL | http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
[10:22:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: One sec, sorry
[10:22:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> oh nevermind me, butt in
[10:23:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> libtifftools | BSD-ish ? | http://www.libtiff.org/misc.html
[10:24:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: That should be it
[10:24:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Okay, in terms of the code
[10:24:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I don't really see any sane reason to dual-license with ECL 2 and Apache 2
[10:24:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> They're nearly identical licenses
[10:24:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> With a clear path towards merging
[10:24:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> but the license file should clearly state it's both for now and then just list them?
[10:24:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> If UCB were a partner on Decapod, we might take the one line divergence between the two more seriously
[10:25:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I think we should just pick a license for Decapod Server and the two image processing scripts
[10:25:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, when we say Decapod, I think we mean three things:
[10:25:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1. Decapod Server
[10:25:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. PDF Generation script
[10:25:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 3. Stitching script
[10:26:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Does that sound right?
[10:26:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Everything else is essentially a third-party dependency
[10:26:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Key ones being Infusion (ECL/BSD) and OCRopus (Apache 2)
[10:27:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Assuming this is true, I'm thinking that we are best just to pick one license for those three things I listed
[10:27:43 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> so, should we use apache 2 for now?
[10:27:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, that's what I'm inclined to do
[10:28:01 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: makes sense
[10:28:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Again, I think we'd be better to make it BSD in the long run
[10:28:13 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> k, i'll put together a license file with apache2
[10:28:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> but that's perhaps a can of worms
[10:28:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks, jessm
[10:28:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and then put a list of the dependencies together
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[10:28:33 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> BSD can be on our to-discuss for next release
[10:28:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We'll wait for michelled to confirm if there are anymore Decapod-specific parts of the system
[10:28:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: I think we're also going to need a couple of sentences about how Decapod is woven together
[10:29:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think it might even be worth using the FSF's language here...
[10:29:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Something to the effect of...
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[10:29:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> "Decapod aggregates together a variety of image capture and processing tools, using a command line interface to bind them together. These third-party dependencies include:"
[10:30:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess that's a fairly redundant sentence
[10:30:15 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: there is also the client side component
[10:30:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: ok, i'll start something that we can throw darts at later
[10:30:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But the key word is "aggregate" here, and to just briefly explain how these pieces are bound together (i.e. through a command line interface, not through linking)
[10:30:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Thanks, boss
[10:31:04 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> np
[10:31:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: True that. I guess I was imagining it as part of the Server
[10:31:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But we could rename that...
[10:31:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> "Decapod Application"
[10:31:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ?
[10:31:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Decapod UX?
[10:31:54 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> well, but wouldn't the pdf gen and stitching scripts be part of the 'application'
[10:31:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ?
[10:32:00 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> decapod UX is better
[10:32:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I guess the scripts are accessed through a command line interface as well?
[10:32:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or do you actually make a function call to them?
[10:32:26 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> command line
[10:32:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[10:33:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So we do have an architectural separation here
[10:33:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There's a thing that provides an interface to the user
[10:33:14 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[10:33:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Running both on client and server
[10:33:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[10:33:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> and then there's a strict boundary between it and the processing routines
[10:33:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> All mediated (currently) through a command-line "interface"
[10:33:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: You're better at names than I am
[10:33:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Any thoughts?
[10:34:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> what? i am not!
[10:34:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I could draw a sandwich
[10:34:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> why don't we call it Decapod client
[10:34:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But tmb would rightfully turn it into a pipeline
[10:34:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: I guess the thing is that it also includes the server
[10:34:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Decapod App?
[10:34:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I dunno
[10:34:55 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> where will we use this name?
[10:34:59 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> why not just Decapod?
[10:35:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess there's Michelle's point... "don't the processing scripts count as part of Decapod"
[10:35:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> All this naming is largely for ourselves
[10:35:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> No ordinary person need know these sorts of distinctions
[10:35:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> Decapod interface
[10:35:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> From a licensing perspective, there's "our stuff" and "other stuff"
[10:36:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And from a user perspective, there's just "Decapod"
[10:36:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, so Decapod Interface is server + client
[10:36:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I like that name
[10:36:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Then there's Decapod Processing
[10:36:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And then there's Other Stuff
[10:36:32 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sounds good
[10:36:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Other Stuff consisting of OCRopus, Infusion, GPhoto, and a handful of minor dependencies
[10:37:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, at least now I'm clear
[10:37:24 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jhung: all the decapod JIRAs are moved over and the 'decapod' component in infusion has been deleted
[10:37:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, Decapod Interface + Decapod Processing are Apache 2
[10:37:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Everything else is whatever it is
[10:37:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[10:37:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And the whole system is "aggregated" together using command line interfaces.
[10:38:13 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> michelled: excellent. Thanks!
[10:38:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: That should give you everything you need to make an amazing and legally prudent README
[10:38:43 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> wish me luck!
[10:38:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (tongue)
[10:38:45 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> nothing like being legally prudent (smile)
[10:38:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[10:38:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, see you guys in a couple hours
[10:39:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Oh, one more thing
[10:39:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> To save me sending an email...
[10:39:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here are the two relevant sections of the Free Software Foundation's GPL FAQ:
[10:39:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#NFUseGPLPlugins
[10:39:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation
[10:40:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> MereAggregation explains the fuzzy line between an aggregate and a separate program.
[10:41:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And then lastly, here's FSF's list of GPL-compatible licenses. You'll notice that FSF does indeed acknowledge that GPL 3 and Apache 2 are compatible from a legal perspective
[10:41:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses
[10:42:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But my sense from talking with Barnaby is that the legal part is the easy part. The hard part is selecting licenses based on ensuring that contributions can flow in two directions. People who feel strongly about the GPL tend to be resistant to contributing to an Apache-like project, even if their licenses are ostensibly compatible.
[10:42:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You can't please everyone. (wink)
[10:42:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Okay, I'm done now.
[11:04:45 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> justin_o: this is the patch for artifact view: http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11080/ENGAGE-538.txt
[11:05:11 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> yura2: thanks
[11:10:18 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> justin_o: and this one fixes my collection unit tests : http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11081/ENGAGE-339.txt
[11:22:47 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: where is the readme on the google groups site?
[11:22:48 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> url?
[11:23:26 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it's in a mercurial repo actually
[11:23:31 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> if you check out from here: http://code.google.com/p/decapod/source/checkout
[11:23:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> you get a readme that lists other mercurial repos
[11:26:11 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: the 6 line long file?
[11:34:37 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I think so
[11:38:36 EDT(-0400)] <athena> jasig recently went through a lot of licensing discussion and restructuring, if you're looking for examples
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[11:45:25 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> athena: are there links?
[11:45:38 EDT(-0400)] <athena> there's a fair amount of stuff in the wiki
[11:45:41 EDT(-0400)] <athena> this might be useful: /mvc/permissionsList
[11:45:45 EDT(-0400)] <athena> errrr, not that (smile)
[11:45:49 EDT(-0400)] <athena> http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/LIC/Implementing+the+Licensing+Policy
[11:45:58 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> (smile)
[11:46:06 EDT(-0400)] <athena> that has some examples of what we're using for headers, how we're documenting third party dependencies, etc.
[11:46:20 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> thanks!
[11:46:28 EDT(-0400)] <athena> sure (smile)
[11:46:34 EDT(-0400)] <athena> there are a number of resources in http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/LIC/Home
[11:46:56 EDT(-0400)] <athena> including our contributor agreements and instructions for handling copyrights on existing projects
[11:47:13 EDT(-0400)] <athena> i don't see documentation on how to use the maven licensing plugin, though that should probably be added to the space
[11:47:35 EDT(-0400)] <athena> john lewis was the driving force behind much of that - i generally send him all my licensing questions
[11:48:15 EDT(-0400)] <athena> at this point i think we've revoked uportal commit access for anyone who hasn't sent in a signed individual contributor agreement
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[13:11:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hey, I'm just reviewing jessm's excellent LICENSE file
[13:11:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled or jhung, is there a README file, too?
[13:11:34 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: http://code.google.com/p/decapod/source/browse/README
[13:11:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ah, thanks
[13:11:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[13:11:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Nice!
[13:11:59 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> (smile)
[13:12:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I guess I have a certain degree of ambiguity about the release
[13:12:04 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i think it's young
[13:12:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm assuming michelled is clear on this...
[13:12:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Where will the final release artifacts actually be?
[13:12:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess perhaps scattered across several repositories?
[13:12:42 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: yes.
[13:12:52 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: i can start on a readme in a few – on a conf. call
[13:12:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yearg
[13:12:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: That'd be great
[13:13:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Let's just take the structure from Infusion
[13:13:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I will help
[13:13:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> if you want
[13:13:19 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: I think michelled had some ideas for the readme. touch base with her before you do.
[13:13:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is michelled around?
[13:13:45 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> guessing lunch
[13:13:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Maybe justin_o can throw a teddy bear at her?
[13:14:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: sorry she has gone out to lunch...
[13:14:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[13:14:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: Don't go wildly throwing teddy bears, then
[13:14:47 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: okay... if you say so... i'll restrain myself
[13:15:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: So I guess this README is actually inaccurate, in that the definitive version of the decapod-server is actually here, yes? https://source.fluidproject.org/svn/fluid/decapod/trunk/
[13:15:37 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Yes.
[13:15:42 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> It's a bit out of date.
[13:16:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Do you have a list of key known issues for this release somewhere?
[13:16:10 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> I think md has plans to update it with a summary of parts, links to the wiki, and the license.
[13:16:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In a JIRA filter, on a wiki page, in a text file, something?
[13:16:15 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> yep. hold on.
[13:16:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks, dude
[13:17:06 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+0.3+User+Guide#Decapod0.3UserGuide-Limitations
[13:17:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Also highlights of what this release can do
[13:17:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ah, this is great, jhung
[13:17:33 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Highlights can be found:http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+0.3+Release
[13:17:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Any verbiage about supported platforms/browsers, etc?
[13:18:03 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> yep. See the Decapod 0.3 Release wiki doc.
[13:18:10 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> That can actually be our Readme.
[13:18:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yep, i'm basically making links to these pages
[13:18:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> very nice
[13:18:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Main Deca website and information about the project?
[13:19:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Also, will we be packaging a release bundle?
[13:19:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i.e. a zip file of some kind?
[13:19:40 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> no zip file.
[13:19:53 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Deca website needs updating... majorly.
[13:20:38 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Here it is anyway: http://sites.google.com/site/decapodproject/
[13:21:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Do we have the Deca license posted on the Web anywhere, like we've done for Infusion?
[13:21:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Do we have a wiki page that links to all the different source code locations?
[13:21:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That would be super-helpful
[13:22:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> A page that briefly describes each "module" and provides a link to the source code repo
[13:22:51 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Not yet. MD was going to do that as part of the Readme I think.
[13:23:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Any chance you could whip that up now?
[13:23:45 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Yes. I was just about to volunteer.
[13:24:01 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> I'll let you know when it's up.
[13:24:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[13:24:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Thanks jhung
[13:24:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I really appreciate it
[13:24:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: One other quick question...
[13:25:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just to confirm, we're not distributing any of our third-party dependencies in our source repo, right? They need to be downloaded by the user, correct?
[13:26:20 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> For the Server and Client code, yes. Not so sure about the stitching and pdf gen scripts. I don't think they are, but not 100% sure.
[13:27:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[13:27:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i'll check
[13:31:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Are we shipping with only support for the G10s to start?
[13:32:00 EDT(-0400)] * michelled is recovering from being knocked out by a flung teddy bear
[13:32:14 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Also Nikon D50 and D200.
[13:32:57 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jhung, colinclark, jessm: sorry I didn't mention I was afk - what can I do to help with the release?
[13:33:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: HOW COULD YOU LEAVE FOR LUNCH!?!
[13:33:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> WE HAVE TEXT FILES TO WRITE!
[13:33:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (wink)
[13:33:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (tongue)
[13:33:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: So when we say "supported," we mean "If you have a G10, a D50, or a D200, we'll fix any related bugs you encounter, etc?"
[13:34:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or is this looser?
[13:34:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I think we're pretty much cool here
[13:34:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm whipping up a README
[13:34:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung is being his usual awesome self
[13:34:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm wrote the LICENSE file and is in a conference call now
[13:34:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> and you, i guess, are dodging teddy bears
[13:35:04 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Hmmm... Good question. G10s are still available @ retail, whereas the nikons are not.
[13:35:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ah, we'll just say it
[13:35:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In a gphoto world, I still don't quite know what "support" even means
[13:36:02 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: support in gphoto world means: "It was working once, but we can't guarantee it working in the future".
[13:36:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[13:36:17 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Being serious here... (big grin)
[13:36:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yeah, i know
[13:36:31 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> lol
[13:36:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> hey, it's a tough gig, reverse engineering proprietary camera APIs
[13:37:18 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> yeah. They've done a pretty amazing job considering how much it supports.
[13:39:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> eek
[13:39:57 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: michelled: jhung: i went awol too – had a conf. call
[13:40:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> what can i do?
[13:40:11 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: the readme is in teh wiki under a diff name
[13:40:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: In two minutes, proof my README
[13:40:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> it's just about done
[13:40:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: So it's safe to call this a "source code only" release, since we don't ship a package or binary?
[13:40:31 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: super fast!
[13:40:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> easy peasy
[13:40:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: yes
[13:40:46 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: See Introduction here: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Download+and+Install+Decapod+0.3
[13:40:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: wicked
[13:40:55 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i'm not sure why, but i put this here at one point: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/OCRopus+license
[13:41:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: that's why it's so fast (wink)
[13:41:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> oh
[13:41:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i think i got annoyed with trying to find it
[13:41:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yeah
[13:41:28 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> but then forgot i put it there
[13:41:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Let's create a new page called Decapod+Licensing
[13:41:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> With a bit of information about our license
[13:41:48 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: Copyright © 2010, University of Toronto; Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz or its licensors, as applicable.
[13:41:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Can you do that?
[13:41:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: nice
[13:41:56 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i lifted that – i assume you've already got it
[13:42:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: yep, i'm on it
[13:42:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm not sure what the "or its licensors" means fully
[13:42:04 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: Use this page: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+License
[13:42:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[13:42:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> man, you're fast
[13:42:20 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> woah
[13:42:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> whiplash
[13:42:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> it is empty, but still
[13:42:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: that's the page to fill out
[13:42:39 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: oh yeah!
[13:42:41 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Yeah place holder for the wiki pages that reference it.
[13:42:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Can I edit this sentence slightly?
[13:42:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Decapod 0.3 is a "source release" meaning that you will need to download and install the source code manually. In the future we hope to have a simpler method of deploying Decapod.
[13:43:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And say "In the future we plan to have a simpler method..."?
[13:43:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Are you comfortable with that?
[13:43:15 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> go ahead. (smile)
[13:43:19 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> lemme start it at least
[13:43:30 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Better to have a plan anyway. (wink)
[13:43:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> gives our users some hope
[13:44:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> at least those who don't already employ wobbly windows on a daily basis
[13:44:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> those who do probably think our install is already too easy
[13:44:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (tongue)
[13:44:47 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> wobbly windows rules.
[13:46:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm, jhung: Shall I commit this README to our repo for some review/edits?
[13:46:33 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> sure.
[13:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: sure
[13:48:32 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> michelled: Can I move your "notes" page out of the 0.3 area and into the Development area of the Decapod wiki space?
[13:48:48 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> is that the todo after 0.3 page?
[13:49:10 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: started here http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+License
[13:49:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: do we want the dependencies listed here?
[13:49:33 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and yes, i know i broke the CLA and CCLA – not sure if we need to leave them there or not – ideas?
[13:49:34 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> michelled: I'd put the page as a child to this http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+Development
[13:49:37 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> That okay?
[13:49:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yep
[13:49:47 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> cool.
[13:49:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: Can you run through them real quick and see if they are Fluid or Infusion-specifc?
[13:49:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> If they aren't we should just reuse them as-is for Deca
[13:50:01 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: they are fluid
[13:50:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Do you think Deca needs its own permutation?
[13:50:23 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> no
[13:50:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fluid is a partner on the team
[13:50:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, then let's just link 'em and reuse them as-is
[13:50:32 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i think we're ok with using teh same ones
[13:50:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> great
[13:50:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yep, ok
[13:50:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> as for dependencies...
[13:50:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm sort of torn about that
[13:50:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It'll mean we have to update the list in two places
[13:51:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So we have two choices
[13:51:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1. Link to the README file, which lists the dependencies
[13:51:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yes, let's do that (smile)
[13:51:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. Move the dependencies onto this wiki page, and link to it from the README
[13:51:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> which is better?
[13:51:39 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ah,
[13:51:41 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i see
[13:52:06 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i think the readme should be where they live – it's where downloaders will find all the information they need
[13:52:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> it's not likely someone coming to the license page will be doing an install from that page
[13:56:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, great
[13:58:09 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: any sign of tmb?
[13:58:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm, jhung, michelled: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+License
[13:58:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> will commit the README now
[13:59:39 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: calling his mobile
[13:59:49 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> k.
[14:00:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: we need stitching and what else from him
[14:00:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: michelled: tmb will be online in 15 min
[14:00:48 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tags for stitching and genpdf.
[14:00:52 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> k
[14:03:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung: Is there a JIRA I should be using for this?
[14:03:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (committing README and LICENSE)
[14:03:35 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> I think there's a task for the readme.
[14:04:33 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: there isn't one.
[14:04:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, ill file one
[14:04:53 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> k
[14:08:50 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jhung: should I update the user guide with the new JIRA numbers?
[14:09:05 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Not critical. it properly redirects.
[14:09:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/DECA-89
[14:09:41 EDT(-0400)] * tmbdev (~tmb@c-24-23-181-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[14:10:13 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> hey y'all is jamon around today?
[14:10:22 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Hi tmbdev, you're just in time! (smile)
[14:10:41 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> hi
[14:10:46 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> so what needs to be done?
[14:10:53 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Two things.
[14:11:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm, michelled, jhung: I've committed the README and LICENSE files here: https://source.fluidproject.org/svn/fluid/decapod/trunk/
[14:11:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Can you take a look
[14:11:08 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> 1. A tag for decapod-stitching
[14:11:16 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> 2. a tag for decapod-genpdf.
[14:11:32 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> This way the code is stable for this release.
[14:11:33 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> OK...
[14:11:41 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> you're aware that you can do the tagging yourself, right?
[14:11:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: where are they?
[14:11:53 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm: I've been watching his desk - his computer is there so I'm expecting him back
[14:12:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: right there (smile)
[14:12:13 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tmbdev. Didn't know that. We need some education in mercurial after this release. (smile)
[14:12:30 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> OK... I'll do it, but it's quite simple
[14:12:32 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> tmbdev: I think you need to put the license file in there too
[14:12:36 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> before tagging
[14:12:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: What should tmbdev call the tags?
[14:12:51 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> you just need a checked out version, then "hg tag tag-name" and then "hg push"; that's it
[14:13:04 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> ok.
[14:13:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> tmbdev: I don't know that any of us were aware that we had accounts to those repositories
[14:13:17 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tmbdev, in that case, can you hold off? Let me talk to michelled.
[14:18:41 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tmbdev. michelled and I will try to do the tag on our end.
[14:18:54 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Just hang around in case we mess up. (wink)
[14:21:09 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> tmbdev: the issue we have is that we ran QA without realizing that commits were still happening on the scripts
[14:21:28 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> so we want to check the revision we tested with compared to the revision at the tip
[14:21:31 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> how do I do that?
[14:21:58 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> Have you updated your version to the tip?
[14:22:27 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> at the point where I was under the impression that the code had frozen, I had updated to tip
[14:22:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> but I'm no longer certain that it is the actual current tip
[14:23:00 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> also, if we can avoid rerunning QA, that would be preferable
[14:23:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> so we may just want to tag from the revision that we QAed on
[14:23:14 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> make sense?
[14:23:22 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> you can update to the previous tag by typing "hg update decapod-0.3-pre0"
[14:23:56 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tmbdev, so is it okay if we tag what we have even though it's not the tip?
[14:24:13 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I didn't know that you'd made a tag
[14:26:42 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> decapod-0.3-pre0
[14:26:51 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> That was the version you used for testing.
[14:27:55 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> tmbdev, can we skype?
[14:30:03 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> one sc
[14:30:17 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> Oh wow... Mercurial stuff
[14:30:18 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> Exciting
[14:33:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon7: Most of the Decapod source code is in Mercurial
[14:33:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We'll move our stuff in after this 0.3 release, too
[14:33:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So the Decapod team are going to be our first Mercurial users, in advance of a Wholesale Switchover
[14:33:59 EDT(-0400)] <tmbdev> OK online now, we can chat briefly on Skype
[14:38:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jamon: are you around? i have a quick question
[14:40:01 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm: he's not back yet
[14:40:19 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ah
[14:41:09 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm, colinclark, michelled: just had a quick chat with tmbdev.
[14:41:38 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> the course of action for us will be to push out the two text files we need to include. and then push a tag.
[14:41:53 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> From what I understand, this should all work fine with mercurial.
[14:42:38 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> However...
[14:42:52 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> there is already a file called README in the decapod stitch and genpdf code.
[14:43:04 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark, jessm: I think we are ready to start Infusion 1.2 testing... we didn't get fckeditor removed, nor qunit upgraded yet.. we can potentionally do those during testing and then go back and test those areas if we want to have them in the release
[14:43:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> justin_o: awesome, count me in on testing
[14:43:29 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> So I propose we rename the decapod readme (the one we're pushing out) to ABOUT instead.
[14:43:46 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> For this push. Not the rest of the stuff we've already done.
[14:43:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: what about README_0.3
[14:43:58 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> jessm: thanks
[14:44:14 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: could be confusing to have two files named similarly.
[14:44:29 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> maybe "readme_Decapod"
[14:44:55 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> k
[14:44:57 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> ReadmeDecapod_0.3
[14:45:31 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I don't think we need the version number - we'll update the Readme each time
[14:45:54 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> this is to differentiate it from the readme that is in the latest version?
[14:45:58 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: ^
[14:46:18 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it is to differentiate it from the readme that is specific to the particular script
[14:46:31 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i'm not sure i'm following
[14:46:33 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> each script has a readme describng how to install etc.
[14:46:50 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> we can't replace that. So we'll need to rename our file.
[14:47:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> so if you check out decapod-genpdf you will get a README file in the src directory
[14:47:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> that file tells you the options the script has etc
[14:47:57 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it's particular information for the use of genpdf and doesn't contain the general release info that was just committed to the fluid svn repo
[14:48:05 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> is this making sense jessm?
[14:48:56 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: yes, i think so
[14:49:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Why are we renaming the README?
[14:49:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Aesthetics?
[14:49:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: i don't think it's the readme
[14:49:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i think it's more like the howto
[14:49:36 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no, to differentiate it from the existing readme
[14:49:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[14:49:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> wowza
[14:49:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> you guys are text file nerds, for sure
[14:49:54 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (tongue)
[14:50:13 EDT(-0400)] * jhung puts tape on glasses
[14:52:03 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> so, let me try to say this clearly. the genpdf script comes with a README file that gives instructions on how to install and use it. we now have a README file in the fluid svn which gives general information on the decapod 0.3 release. we want to include that general README in genpdf but we aren't sure what to call it
[14:52:43 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> huh?
[14:52:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> you want to include one file in another?
[14:52:55 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and rename the combo?
[14:52:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[14:53:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> hilarious
[14:53:02 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> oh dear
[14:53:02 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i'm so dumb today!
[14:53:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think Fish is saying
[14:53:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There are two README files
[14:53:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> One needs a new name
[14:53:18 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[14:53:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yes?
[14:53:26 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> lol
[14:53:40 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> well, which one is the README? have you settled on that?
[14:54:35 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> The existing README in the iupr is going to stay where it is. So the README we wrote for Decapod SVN will need a new name when we incorporate it into the iupr mecurial code.
[14:55:18 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> there is an existing readme in the google code repo – is that what you mean jhung
[14:55:23 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no
[14:55:33 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> that is yet another README
[14:55:34 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i'm a lost cause
[14:55:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no, you are not
[14:55:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> should we skype?
[14:55:53 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> will that help?
[14:55:57 EDT(-0400)] * jhung swimming in repositories.
[14:55:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sure
[14:57:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled, jessm: Other projects often have a RUNNING or USING text file
[14:57:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> that explains how to use the thing
[14:57:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Tomcat 6, for example, ships with a RUNNING.txt file
[14:57:39 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> We can use ABOUT
[14:59:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ImageMagick calls it QuickStart.txt
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[15:02:28 EDT(-0400)] <thomas_> jessm: hi
[15:02:54 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> colinclark: I get a 404 on the Decapod Readme http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+License
[15:02:55 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> thomas_: hiya!
[15:03:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ?
[15:03:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You created that page
[15:03:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It seems to work for me, jhung
[15:04:02 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> The link sends me to: https://source.fluidproject.org/svn/fluid/decapod/trunk/README it's not there.
[15:04:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ah
[15:04:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> add .txt
[15:04:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> sorry
[15:04:30 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> ahhhh
[15:04:40 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> k I'll fix that
[15:07:38 EDT(-0400)] <thomas_> jessm: are you good for our chat ... or am I mistaken?
[15:07:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> thomas_: i'd love to chat...
[15:08:06 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> thomas_: wanna endure 20 questions here in the wide open?
[15:09:09 EDT(-0400)] <thomas_> probably best if we slip into your office
[15:09:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> (smile)
[15:12:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: and michelled: explained the mysteries of the READMEs
[15:12:25 EDT(-0400)] * jessm is all better now
[15:12:48 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> when in doubt of what to name a file call it README
[15:12:53 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (wink)
[15:13:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> README1.txt
[15:13:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> README2.txt
[15:13:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> problem solved? (tongue)
[15:13:39 EDT(-0400)] <athena> maybe you also need a DONTREADME.txt
[15:13:43 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> numbers are just silly. just place them in different directories
[15:13:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yes!
[15:13:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ah
[15:13:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1/README.txt
[15:13:56 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: fluidsvn readme replaces google code repo readme and iupr readmes get renamed
[15:13:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2/README.txt
[15:13:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> talk about user factors
[15:14:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm: excellent choice
[15:14:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i was quietly advocating for that (tongue)
[15:14:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> pshaw
[15:15:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> We are now starting release testing for Fluid Infusion 1.2
[15:15:18 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> Please feel free to help
[15:15:28 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> This also means that the Infusion Trunk is frozen
[15:16:28 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> justin_o: link?
[15:19:06 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> jessm: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Release+Testing+Tasks
[15:19:15 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> there are more details in an e-mail sent to list
[15:20:29 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> http://fluidproject.org/pipermail/fluid-work/2010-March/006830.html
[15:20:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> justin_o: awesome
[15:32:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: I reviewed and closed http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3421
[15:32:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Looks good
[15:32:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks to you and Alison both
[15:32:52 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: thanks for reviewing that
[15:32:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o, yura2: Where are we at with this open issue? http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3527
[15:33:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> QUnit is still outstanding?
[15:33:12 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: yes
[15:33:22 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> i believe that is the last bit left
[15:33:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, I'll see what I can do in an hour or so
[15:33:28 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> okay... thanks
[15:33:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Will one of you be around to catch me up on where you're at with it?
[15:33:48 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: yura2 is in class now but should be back at 4
[15:33:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[15:34:03 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> i'll probably be leaving around 4 though, but can chat with you before that if you have time
[15:34:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, looking at all open 1.2 issues, we're doing well
[15:34:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We have to update some links once we ship the release
[15:34:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (in the FSS documentation)
[15:34:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Finish the QUnit migration
[15:34:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And punt FCK
[15:34:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: Do you know if Bosmon and yura2 were able to get the new CKEditor into our "CDN"
[15:35:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (a.k.a. our Google App Engine site)
[15:35:27 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: I don't think so
[15:35:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[15:35:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> when yura2 gets back, perhaps he can do that real quick
[15:35:57 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: sure i'll mention that to him
[15:36:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[15:36:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> do you have enough testing volunteers?
[15:36:43 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> so far it looks like it is James and I, I believe Jess will help when she has time...
[15:36:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, great
[15:37:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled and jhung: you guys okay for release, or can I help more there?
[15:37:19 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> I'm currently without a win 7 machine too.. but i figure someone could take those on with jacob's old machine
[15:37:25 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> how about we'll ping you if we need you colinclark
[15:37:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[15:37:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: What happened to your Win 7 VM?
[15:38:02 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> it was a pre-release of win 7
[15:38:08 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> i don't have a final copy yet
[15:38:31 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> i did send bert a message to see if we had any more licences, but haven't heard back from him yet
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[15:48:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: as you say, fj's machine should suffice
[15:48:52 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: yep.. should do
[15:55:03 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> justin_o: i think thomas_ is into testing – he'll ping when he's ready to jump in
[15:56:35 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> jessm: that's great thanks
[16:32:26 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: Michelled and I will have to do new QA.
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[16:33:57 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: the release is going to have to be tomorrow.
[16:34:20 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: sounds reasonable
[16:34:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: everything else is completed
[16:36:16 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: okay.
[16:36:34 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: that was a qeustion – everything else is completed?
[16:37:25 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> jessm: still missing the demo server, this final QA, and updating of instructions to include the tags we've just cut.
[16:37:38 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jhung: ah, gotcha
[16:37:45 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> tomorrow will be a great day for a release (wink)
[16:37:57 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> lol
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[16:43:40 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jhung: retagging the fluid decapod-0.3 is done
[16:44:54 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> ok
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[17:11:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> hey yura2 are you around?
[17:11:30 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> hey colinclark yes
[17:11:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm thinking about taking a look at the new QUnit
[17:11:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Can you brief me on where you got, and what problems you encountered?
[17:11:52 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:11:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And do you have a patch I could start with, or shall I just try it myself?
[17:11:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[17:12:11 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> well the only test we had trouble with was table of contents
[17:12:44 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> the problems we had were related to stop and start functionality that was used to prevent tests until the component markup is rendered
[17:13:40 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> i have clearly shows the issues if you want
[17:14:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[17:14:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yeah, if you have a patch or anything, that would be very helpful
[17:15:03 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> one sec I will email it to you
[17:15:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So the qunit.js that is in src/webapp/tests/lib--is that the new version?
[17:15:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: Stick it on the FLUID-3527 ticket if you can
[17:15:45 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> alright
[17:16:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[17:16:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> how's testing going?
[17:16:54 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> colinclark: so it's called qunite-FI.txt
[17:16:58 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> and it's attached
[17:17:03 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> to 3527
[17:17:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> cool
[17:18:14 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> let me know if need anything else
[17:19:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, this looks like a good start
[17:20:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: Quick question
[17:20:14 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yep
[17:20:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So this patch has changes to qunit.js itself
[17:20:25 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:20:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess I might be slightly confused
[17:20:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is the latest version of qunit.js in our repository right now?
[17:20:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or does your patch add it?
[17:20:40 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> it's the latest version of it from the website
[17:20:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In your patch? Or in the repo?
[17:21:02 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> in the patch
[17:21:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> sorry for the confusion (smile)
[17:21:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[17:22:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, in other words, trunk currently contains an outdated version of qunit.js, yes?
[17:22:06 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:22:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> cool
[17:22:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i get it now
[17:22:36 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> it's just slightly outdated, most of the changes there are tabs to spaces
[17:22:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[17:22:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[17:23:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So can you walk me through the things you needed to do to update a given test from the old QUnit to the newest version?
[17:23:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:23:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Like, randomly pick a test... what did you have to do?
[17:23:25 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> sure
[17:23:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> looks like maybe testrunner.js is no longer necessary?
[17:23:40 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> so we had to change the includes to point to qunite.js and css
[17:23:44 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:23:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[17:23:52 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> instead of testrunner stuff
[17:24:06 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> and we had to change id s of test template specific elements
[17:24:18 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> added "qunit-" prefix to all but main
[17:24:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, so qunit.js is the replacement for testrunner.js
[17:24:22 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> ys
[17:24:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, so I saw the id changes. That makes sense
[17:24:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> What else?
[17:24:43 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> i think that's all we did
[17:24:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[17:24:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I think I'm going to make a branch for this
[17:25:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And we can introduce changes one by one
[17:25:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just so we know all about them
[17:25:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> ye
[17:25:17 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> s
[17:25:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This is another case, like with the jQuery UI file names, where we also need to teach our users how to upgrade their tests
[17:25:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I don't know how long you're planning to work today
[17:25:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But if you're around for a bit-or tomorrow morning-maybe we could make a little tutorial in the wiki...
[17:25:51 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> there's one change in the fluidParser.js that should be reverted (we were just testing something)
[17:25:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> "How to Upgrade Your Unit Tests to QUnit"
[17:25:56 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[17:26:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: Ah, I wondered about that
[17:26:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, let's do it.
[17:26:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'll create the branch, you start the tutorial
[17:26:14 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> i am currently adding ckedtor to cdn
[17:26:18 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> alright
[17:26:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hopefully my questions will serve as fodder for the tutorial
[17:26:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, finish that up first
[17:26:27 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> ok
[17:26:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I don't want to hijack your work (smile)
[17:27:06 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> alright , thanks, ill let you know as soon as it's ready
[17:28:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: I've created a new bug for this work http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3577
[17:29:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> great, thanks
[17:30:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: I'd recommend, for things like this QUnit upgrade, that you go ahead and make branches even when you're still figuring it out
[17:30:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You can branch from the main repo into the incubator, and then you have a slightly more stable place to work in
[17:31:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Easier to go step-by-step, too
[17:31:24 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes, that should be helpful
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[18:00:02 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> colinclark: so ckeditor should be available at http://ckeditor-fluid.appspot.com/ckeditor.js
[18:00:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> cool
[18:00:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> Ah
[18:00:12 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> Thanks, yura
[18:00:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks!
[18:00:27 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> I will try and tinker with it from there tomorrow
[18:00:36 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> hopefully everything was uploaded
[18:00:43 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon7> Why not test it (smile)
[18:00:56 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[18:01:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: Makes sense. Probably pretty easy to whip up an example
[18:01:08 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[18:01:28 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> i gotta run out for a bit , will be back in half hour and test it
[18:04:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
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[19:00:37 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> colinclark: it works (smile) , i tried basic integration of ckeditor (basic, source and production)
[19:00:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> awesome
[19:01:15 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> production source version is somewhat big though
[19:01:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> how so?
[19:02:01 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> well it seems like it takes the most on the page to load, visually
[19:02:40 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> oh and they have jquery plugin too
[19:03:32 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> it is in cdn too so ill test it just in case
[19:04:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: Ok, so I have the Table of Contents tests passing again
[19:04:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Were those the only ones you encountered with problems? That's all I saw
[19:04:44 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> colinclark: we went through the whole tests folder and that was the only one there. how did you fix it (smile) ?
[19:04:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> well, it's sort of hard to explain
[19:04:55 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> engage tests will be broken too though
[19:05:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess we haven't been using stop() and start() correctly, or their semantics actually changed between versions
[19:05:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The current semantics make sense to me, but they're clearly not what we were expecting
[19:05:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think I'm going to have to build something better than this, though
[19:05:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, here's the deal...
[19:06:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Stop delays the completion of test execution until start() is called
[19:06:32 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> right
[19:07:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Thinking about it, I guess in the past stop() actually stopped the next phase of testing running from proceeding
[19:07:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, stop() now has to be called within the test itself
[19:07:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> They have created a convenience function called asyncTest() that does it for you
[19:07:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But the rest of the test body will continue to run
[19:08:19 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> oh interesting
[19:08:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's just that the test running will sit and wait for any other tests to run before finishing up...
[19:08:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In other words, it runs the through the body of the test function, then waits for start()
[19:09:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Whereas before we were calling stop() in the setup() function, and that was delaying the execution of the actual test until after start() was called
[19:09:11 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes, this is what we noticed was hapenning
[19:09:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Michelle wrote an email to the list about this awhile ago
[19:09:27 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> right
[19:09:28 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> so i checked and jquery plugin for ckeditor works and might be useful
[19:09:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, as I explain this, it's clear that jQuery changed the meaning of start() and stop()
[19:09:46 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> right
[19:09:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> stop() now means "wait until any subsequent asynchronous tests run"
[19:10:38 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> got it
[19:10:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Put more concretely, your tests have to run inside the callback for any asynchronous operation
[19:10:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> it's sort of problematic
[19:11:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> but in many cases, we test for asynchrony unnecessarily
[19:11:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I mean, for Table of Contents, we're not testing that the template gets loaded asynchronously
[19:12:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We're testing that the template gets loaded
[19:12:19 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> yes
[19:12:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Meaning, setting the async property to false in jQuery's global AJAX options would equally suffice
[19:13:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I imagine this is probably the most appropriate fix for most things
[19:13:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Where we actually want to test the asynchrony of an operation
[19:13:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For example, if we wanted to test that an afterRender event fired after fetching a template
[19:13:46 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> right
[19:14:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> then we'd test that callback by registering a listener, stopping the tests, and running the actual tests (and calling start()) inside the listener itself
[19:14:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: So why will Engage's tests break
[19:14:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ?
[19:14:47 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> i only because we need to update them to qunite (i.e. ids and the resources)
[19:15:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ah, right
[19:15:29 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> but that should be it
[19:16:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So here's what michelle originally said:
[19:16:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> "Thought I'd give a little more information on using 'stop' and 'start'. There are 4 lifecycle phases in the test: setup, testbody, teardown, reset. If stop is called in one of the lifecycle phases, that lifecycle phase continues until it is done but the next lifecycle phase will not begin until 'start' has been called. In the following example foo and bar will be run before the ajax call returns but baz will only run after the
[19:16:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 'start' call in the ajax callback. "
[19:16:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It appears that stop() no longer stops the next lifecycle phase from occurring.
[19:21:59 EDT(-0400)] * michelled (~michelled@CPE001310472ade-CM0011aefd3ca8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fluid-work
[19:22:33 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> ok, next ill engage tests later on then and make sure what passed still passes
[19:22:43 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> (smile)
[19:22:45 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> sorry
[19:22:51 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> that didnt make sense
[19:22:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ooh, michelled
[19:22:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> is that you?
[19:23:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura2: thanks
[19:23:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i knew what you meant
[19:23:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> tis me
[19:23:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (smile)
[19:23:11 EDT(-0400)] <yura2> alright see ya
[19:23:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> hey
[19:23:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> big news
[19:23:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled, I just quoted you
[19:23:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Can I quote you again, and tell you interesting news?
[19:23:31 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I hope I said something wise
[19:23:34 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes
[19:23:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Okay, so you saw Justin and yura2 banging their heads against the QUnit upgrade today?
[19:24:04 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yep
[19:24:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> you said something very wise, yes
[19:24:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So it was asynchrony
[19:24:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> stop() wasn't stopping
[19:24:38 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> that's not good
[19:24:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here's the wise thing you said way back almost a year ago:
[19:24:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ""Thought I'd give a little more information on using 'stop' and 'start'. There are 4 lifecycle phases in the test: setup, testbody, teardown, reset. If stop is called in one of the lifecycle phases, that lifecycle phase continues until it is done but the next lifecycle phase will not begin until 'start' has been called."
[19:24:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That still makes sense to you, right?
[19:24:57 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yup
[19:25:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I explained that to justin_o today
[19:25:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Well, stop() no longer stops the next lifecycle phase.
[19:25:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:25:28 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> huh - what does it do then?