fluid-work IRC Logs-2008-02-19

[10:11:01 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac (n=chatzill@142.150.154.149) has joined #fluid-work
[10:18:02 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[10:35:09 EST(-0500)] * EricDalquist (n=dalquist@bohemia.doit.wisc.edu) has joined #fluid-work
[11:23:27 EST(-0500)] * clown (n=clown@user383.megabit.utoronto.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[11:59:53 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: How's it going?
[12:01:05 EST(-0500)] <clown> fine: off to the DTHML call; just a second.
[12:01:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool. When is it over?
[12:03:01 EST(-0500)] <clown> 1:00pm
[12:03:22 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Great. Wanted to chat about code conventions briefly whenever you're done.
[12:06:09 EST(-0500)] <clown> how about 1:30? I have to dash off to Alistair's school – he forgot something crucial this morning.
[12:09:20 EST(-0500)] <clown> colinclark: how about 1:30? I have to dash off to Alistair's school – he forgot something crucial this morning.
[12:09:53 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: Works for me.
[12:10:03 EST(-0500)] <clown> ok
[12:23:57 EST(-0500)] <clown> colinclark: maybe it can be 1:00pm; the DHTML call just ended early. So, I'm off to school now.
[12:52:32 EST(-0500)] * jhung (n=Fluid@142.150.154.178) has joined #fluid-work
[13:44:51 EST(-0500)] <clown> colinclark: when to do you want to chat?
[13:45:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: We can chat now if you don't mind me me occasionally disappearing.
[13:46:05 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I wanted to chat about our alternatives for putting a space between function names and their arguments when calling them. ie. foo () vs. foo().
[13:46:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You mentioned it was really hard to read without the space.
[13:46:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Is there something we do in terms of larger or alternative fonts?
[13:46:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It occurred to me last week that we're on the cusp of something a bit new:
[13:46:58 EST(-0500)] <clown> not really hard, just somewhat harder. it takes an extra beat to find the argument list.
[13:47:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> working in JavaScript communities with already-established code conventions.
[13:47:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So Dojo and jQuery don't put a space there.
[13:47:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And I wonder if we'll constantly be trying to remember which form to use, depending on what code base we're working in.
[13:48:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Any thoughts/suggestions?
[13:50:03 EST(-0500)] <clown> well, obviously, i like the space. it's makes my life easier. and, yes, we will constantly try to remember which form to use. hmmmm
[13:50:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I can't find any way to use syntax colour in JSEclipse to do it for us.
[13:51:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I don't want to make life harder for you. I've already found it really hard to remember when to use the space and when not to, and worried a bit that the jQuery community would find my plugin confusing because of the extra space.
[13:52:11 EST(-0500)] <clown> you are assuming the colouring would do effectively the same thing. it might, dunno. (interesting that you can't find a way to use colouring – there is no colour for the paramter list).
[13:52:56 EST(-0500)] <clown> that was question about the parameter list.
[13:53:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> No colouring option for the parameter list as far as I can see.
[13:53:26 EST(-0500)] <clown> what is the convention for jQuery plugins?
[13:53:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We're the only ones I've ever encountered who put a space there.
[13:54:41 EST(-0500)]

[13:55:46 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes.
[13:56:22 EST(-0500)] <clown> so: the only thing to remember is to not put the space in for function definitions, and function calls, correct?
[13:59:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> 1 sec
[14:01:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: Yes, that's right.
[14:01:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So it would be like this:
[14:02:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> function foo(arg)
[14:02:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> foo(arg);
[14:02:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The only case where a space is included is with anonymous functions.
[14:02:45 EST(-0500)]

<colinclark> var myFunction = function (arg)

Unknown macro: { blah; }

;

[14:02:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's Crockford's standard, anyway.
[14:05:42 EST(-0500)] <clown> so, Crockford's rule is: if it's a language keyword (operator?), use a space; otherwise, no.
[14:06:01 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, I believe so.
[14:06:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Here's Dojo's Style Guide, in case you're curious.
[14:06:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> http://www.dojotoolkit.org/developer/StyleGuide
[14:06:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> They seem to favour avoiding whitespace altogether.
[14:06:45 EST(-0500)] <clown> taking a quick look...
[14:07:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But the explicitly say function calls should not be followed by a space.
[14:07:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So that's at least one area where we could lessen the mental load while coding.
[14:07:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And then JSLint will like us better, too.
[14:09:35 EST(-0500)] <clown> JSLint is complaining about the spaces?
[14:10:07 EST(-0500)] <clown> ah, if you check "Strict whitespace" you mean?
[14:12:31 EST(-0500)] <clown> It seems to me that if I am going to be working on dojo, my life will be made slightly more difficult irrespective of the fluid code base. I'm assuming that I will be expected to follow their coding conventions.
[14:15:01 EST(-0500)] <clown> Just noticed this: "So that's at least one area where we could lessen the mental load while coding." That depends entirely on who "we" are. It isn't going to lessen my mental load. Just everyone else's, it would appear.
[14:22:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Sorry, I was grabbing lunch from the rather barren caf.
[14:22:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Re JSLint: yes.
[14:22:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> re Dojo: it's only nice to follow a community's conventions if you are part of the community, yes.
[14:23:17 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> As for lessening the mental load, it would certainly help some of us, yes. But is there a way we can find a compromise? I certainly don't want to make things harder for you.
[14:31:25 EST(-0500)] <clown> I guess the way to find a compromise is to test various other visual modifications to see if any of them work as well as the space.
[14:33:17 EST(-0500)] <clown> But, I'd rather be coding, than tweaking editor preferences. And, there something to be said for having worked with both the space and lack thereof, depending on where I was working, and always finding the space to be "natural". That is, if, say, colour could have done the job, why wasn't that noticed before?
[14:33:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: It's up to you.
[14:34:07 EST(-0500)] <clown> what is "it"?
[14:34:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I had thought it might also save you some cognitive load when switching from Fluid's code base to Dojo.
[14:34:17 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The choice about whitespace.
[14:34:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But you know what works best for you, and how much you're willing to adjust accordingly.
[14:35:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm fine either way. Will just have to remember for each project.
[14:36:31 EST(-0500)] <clown> 'willing to adjust" sounds like I have a choice, I'm afraid I'm stuck with my eye sight as is, except I expect it will gradually get worse.
[14:36:57 EST(-0500)] <clown> i dunno. you make it sound like it's a matter of taste.
[14:37:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: No, that's not what I meant at all.
[14:37:35 EST(-0500)] * davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279310793.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[14:37:53 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm not trying to make this harder on you!
[14:37:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> davidb: Hey!
[14:38:05 EST(-0500)] <davidb> hi
[14:38:19 EST(-0500)] <clown> colinclark: well, you are not succeeding.
[14:38:29 EST(-0500)] * davidb leans in
[14:38:31 EST(-0500)] <davidb> this sounds juicy
[14:38:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: Okay, I take that as a vote to stick with the status quo. No problem.
[14:39:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Talking code conventions.
[14:39:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[14:39:16 EST(-0500)] <davidb> oh boring.
[14:39:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, very.
[14:39:32 EST(-0500)] <davidb> heh
[14:39:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Space or no space, that is the question.
[14:39:43 EST(-0500)] <davidb> let's use hungarian prefixing!
[14:40:15 EST(-0500)] <davidb> with no space the world would be full.
[14:45:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Anastasia just mentioned that Jen Bourey is considering porting uPortal's DHTML code from Dojo to jQuery!
[14:45:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm quite surprised by that.
[14:46:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> clown, we did a quick planning after lunch, so I wanted to update you.
[14:46:47 EST(-0500)] <clown> anastasiac: fire away – or should this be by voice?
[14:46:49 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> We're shifting current priories to get the Lightbox working with screen readers (MikeE wants to do user testing
[14:47:04 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> main tasks are in FLUID-83 http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-83
[14:47:19 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> the sub-tasks are currently ordered in order of basic priority
[14:47:52 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Jon is finishing up the SVN reorg this afternoon, and I was about to look into FLUID-256
[14:47:57 EST(-0500)] * davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279310793.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[14:48:16 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Since the next task involves reading ARIA specs, maybe that's a good one for you?
[14:48:58 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Or maybe FLUID-258, which involves learning about dojo
[14:49:30 EST(-0500)] <clown> what, and give up trying to get mouse coordinates in the correct space? I'll look it all over, although I take it the ARIA has a slightly greater priority than dojo
[14:49:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: Than Dojo?
[14:50:20 EST(-0500)] <clown> FLUID-260 vs. FLUID-258
[14:52:30 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> well, the ARIA (26) stuff is slightly higher priority than the non-ARIA/dojo stuff (258) but there's also the consideration of what's good for you in particular to be working on now
[14:52:34 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I don't know what that would be
[14:53:02 EST(-0500)] <clown> and I do?
[14:53:07 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac>
[14:53:17 EST(-0500)] * jayshao (n=jayshao@campuseai.expedient.com) has joined #fluid-work
[14:53:30 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: Trith
[14:53:37 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> The dojo work involves looking at what they do to be accessible in non-ARIA environments.
[14:54:04 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> The ARIA work involves becoming more familiar with the ARIA roles in particular.
[14:54:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: Coming up with sensible ARIA roles for the Lightbox and Portlet examples is, as anastasiac mentioned, slightly higher in priority.
[14:54:16 EST(-0500)] <clown> FLUID-260 (ARIA) seems to have two parts: (1) choose best roles from current spec and (2) make ARIA info pluggable in the Reorderer.
[14:54:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But you would benefit greatly from getting some time with the Dojo widgets anyway.
[14:54:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So I'd suggest that is a good spot for you to dig in.
[14:54:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Perhaps davidb can help!
[14:55:20 EST(-0500)] * davidb raises eyebrow
[14:55:20 EST(-0500)] <davidb> of course!
[14:55:23 EST(-0500)] <davidb> Ideally we could sit together clown but feel free to IM.
[14:55:28 EST(-0500)] <clown> okay, they both appeal to me equally, so if the dojo work would dovetail with other things better, than that's fine by me.
[14:55:41 EST(-0500)] <clown> no, we IRC here...
[14:55:47 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> clown, I've assigned it to you in JIRA - feel free to 'start progress'
[14:55:51 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: bow at the dojo entrance before entering
[14:55:59 EST(-0500)] <clown> with my hand?
[14:56:08 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: sure
[14:56:31 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: are you on the dojo channel?
[14:56:34 EST(-0500)] <davidb> #dojo
[14:56:35 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> davidb: It would be wicked if you have some time to tour clown through your Dojo work to date.
[14:56:40 EST(-0500)] <clown> no.
[14:56:42 EST(-0500)] <davidb> colinclark: agreed
[14:56:53 EST(-0500)] <clown> another one to join...
[14:56:54 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: you could join and lurk for while.
[14:56:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> One of the issues we are inspired by is the fact that many of the widgets work great even in a non-ARIA environment such as IE.
[14:57:01 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: yeah. but it can be a fun one
[14:57:14 EST(-0500)] * davidb nods
[14:57:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So, especially because FF doesn't seem to be exposing DnD states to MSAA yet, we're looking for techniques to help make the Reorderer work better with screenreaders.
[14:57:37 EST(-0500)] <clown> davidb: point me towards something.
[14:58:20 EST(-0500)] <davidb> colinclark: we could help FF implement by being the test client
[14:58:23 EST(-0500)] <clown> davidb: actually, let me point you towards something first: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-258
[14:58:25 EST(-0500)] <davidb> colinclark: not sure of status
[14:58:30 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: looking
[14:58:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> davidb: Yeah, that would be great.
[14:58:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> This is why I'm so excited that you'll be more involved!
[14:58:54 EST(-0500)] <davidb>
[15:00:34 EST(-0500)] * davidb bounces baby
[15:04:58 EST(-0500)] <clown> davidb: colinclark has described the dojo technique with respect to "menu", or "combox". I think that's what FLUID-258 is about. Was it "menu"/
[15:05:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> clown: ComboButton was the one I tested, I think.
[15:05:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The one in Sakai's Resources tool.
[15:05:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It was astonishingly well done.
[15:07:13 EST(-0500)] <clown> colinclark: and that was a dojo combobutton? Seems a good place to start. Where do I look davidb?
[15:07:48 EST(-0500)] <davidb> simon rocked combobutton... at least i think it was him
[15:07:59 EST(-0500)] <davidb> 1 sec
[15:09:07 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/browser/dijit/trunk/form/Button.js
[15:09:09 EST(-0500)] <davidb> and...
[15:09:21 EST(-0500)] <davidb> clown: http://trac.dojotoolkit.org/browser/dijit/trunk/form/templates/ComboButton.html
[15:09:30 EST(-0500)] <davidb> i really got to step away...
[15:09:48 EST(-0500)] <clown> thanks, davidb. I'll go start readin'
[15:34:20 EST(-0500)] * simonjb (n=chatzill@142.150.154.170) has joined #fluid-work
[17:31:26 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac (n=chatzill@142.150.154.149) has left #fluid-work
[17:47:00 EST(-0500)] * clown (n=clown@user383.megabit.utoronto.ca) has left #fluid-work
[18:55:46 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279534257.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[19:04:53 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279534257.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[21:56:30 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279534257.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[22:52:18 EST(-0500)] * jayshao (n=jayshao@66.94.87.210) has joined #fluid-work