fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-08-09

[08:52:41 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> Justin_o: the upgrade didn't fix the JIRA problems
[08:52:45 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i've opened another ticket
[08:52:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> huslage: thanks for looking into that
[09:09:13 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Anyone know of a good, reputable Open Source screen recoridng software?
[09:10:58 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Looks like CamStudio is pretty popular: http://camstudio.org/
[09:17:06 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> Bosmon: Hi I can't find the branch you made yesterday...
[09:19:52 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> Bosmon: is it 3291?
[09:20:02 CDT(-0500)] <lahabana> *4391
[10:03:34 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> fluid-everyone: anyone have an opinion on whether we should include the framework linting in this release https://github.com/fluid-project/infusion/pull/132
[10:03:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o: I think we should
[10:03:57 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> since we are going to do full testing anyway
[10:05:24 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled: okay.. i want to ask antranig a question or two about some of the changes, but i can look into putting it in after that
[10:05:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> or you could take a look at it if you would prefer
[10:05:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> you may as well handle it Justin_o
[10:06:05 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled: Okay.. i'll try to track down Bosmon later then
[10:06:47 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> thx
[10:07:16 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> huslage: I can't seem to get onto the idrc wiki - it might just be that I've forgotten my password (sad) do you know who I should contact?
[10:07:34 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> jan knows how to fix that. let me see first though
[10:09:44 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> ask jan, michelled
[10:09:46 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> he can fix it.
[10:09:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> thx huslage
[10:09:52 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i don't understand moinmoin
[10:11:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Did you see this? http://jquerytesting.pbworks.com/w/page/44121636/TestSwarm-OOP
[10:12:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Sounds like we're planning a TestSwarm backend rewrite in the jQuery community
[10:12:33 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled: I've installed the imageEditor. It's looking great! I don't see pulkit in the room, otherwise I'd give him props.
[10:12:53 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> (smile)
[10:13:10 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> jhung: I'm glad to hear it
[10:13:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: Jörn has created a SelectMenu branch for jQuery UI
[10:13:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> you and Felix will be able to work on that branch directly
[10:14:27 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> cool
[10:14:48 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i think Jörn mentioned that they were exploring changing the backend, but i didn't know about these details..
[10:32:13 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> stand-up?
[12:09:35 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> colinclark, jameswy: new ppt heading your way.
[12:15:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> thanks, jhung
[12:15:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> looking at it now
[12:36:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> hey huslage, do you have a few minutes?
[12:36:14 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> jes
[12:37:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm thinking that as part of our "labs" efforts, we're going to need to scale out our IRC infrastructure a tiny bit
[12:37:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We were luckily and kindly granted the fluid-* namespace on Freenode, so it makes it easier for us to expand
[12:37:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> or rather change things around
[12:37:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so we'll probably ultimately have two or three rooms
[12:37:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> at most
[12:38:02 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> we have an irc infrastructure?
[12:38:03 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> hm
[12:38:04 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> lol
[12:38:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[12:38:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> "infrastructure"
[12:38:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> thankfully it's all just freenode
[12:38:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> the only infrastructure we have is the log bot
[12:38:22 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so you want to point the bods
[12:38:23 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> bots
[12:38:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> we've found logging really, really helpful
[12:38:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Right now, the log bot is on loan from Jasig
[12:38:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Hence his (her?) name
[12:38:46 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it's open source right?
[12:38:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yeah, EricDalquist actually wrote it
[12:39:00 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> can't you just invite it to a room?
[12:39:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> There are other log bots out there, too
[12:39:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> #collectionspace uses a different one
[12:39:14 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> hello?
[12:39:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> hey EricDalquist, we're just talking about our good friend the Log Bot
[12:39:28 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> https://source.jasig.org/sandbox/ConfluenceIrcLogger/
[12:39:32 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> that's the source
[12:39:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> lol
[12:39:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> cool, thanks!
[12:39:38 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> it doesn't respond to any commands
[12:39:41 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah that
[12:39:49 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> there is just an spring xml config file
[12:40:02 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> easy enough
[12:40:10 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> where you specify IRC servers, IRC channels and confluence servers
[12:40:23 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> then connect the three types to get the logging you want happening
[12:40:44 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> this one bot is currently logging 3 different channels to two different confluence servers
[12:40:55 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> awesome
[12:40:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> such a talented bot
[12:41:05 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> multifaceted
[12:41:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and very social
[12:41:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> huslage: There's just one complication
[12:41:31 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> yeah, the idea is that you should be able to run one bot instance to do all the logging you need
[12:41:33 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> (as always)
[12:41:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> leave it to me to complicate things (tongue)
[12:41:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm thinking we may use this labs effort as a chance to start transitioning off Confluence
[12:42:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Meaning, we might build a very small collaborative site for showcasing these projects
[12:42:17 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> that isn't that big of a complication colin
[12:42:19 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> https://source.jasig.org/sandbox/ConfluenceIrcLogger/trunk/src/main/assembly/resources/config/loggerContext.xml
[12:42:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> likely using Media Wiki
[12:42:22 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> that's an example config file
[12:42:24 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> looks easy
[12:42:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ooh, cool
[12:42:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I love it when people write code that doesn't suck
[12:42:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and better yet when they write configuration instead! (smile)
[12:42:45 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> "looks" says he who hasn't written java in 348023043 years
[12:42:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> you rule, EricDalquist
[12:42:56 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> the https://source.jasig.org/sandbox/ConfluenceIrcLogger/trunk/src/main/java/org/jasig/irclog/ConfluenceEventWriter.java just implements a simple EventWriter interface
[12:43:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> huslage: man, you are old!
[12:43:07 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> so implement: https://source.jasig.org/sandbox/ConfluenceIrcLogger/trunk/src/main/java/org/jasig/irclog/EventWriter.java
[12:43:11 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i really am
[12:43:16 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> for whatever you want to write the irc events to
[12:43:20 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> and you're golden
[12:43:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool, that's great to hear
[12:43:35 CDT(-0500)] * EricDalquist does not like non-reusable software
[12:43:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so colinclark can do that and i'll make sure it doesn't break.
[12:43:41 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> (smile)
[12:43:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Seems reasonable
[12:43:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's been about two years since I've written a line of Java
[12:44:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but it's so comfortingly solid, I'll enjoy it
[12:44:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Real IDEs!
[12:44:28 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> IDEs are for wimps. real coders use 'ed'
[12:44:32 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> LOL
[12:44:47 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> real coders use 'echo'
[12:44:49 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> OH YEAH
[12:44:55 CDT(-0500)] <EricDalquist> I can't remember the last time I typed more than 2-3 characters of any class, object, method or property name (wink)
[12:45:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[12:45:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So, our deadline will be to get something working by the end of September, huslage
[12:45:54 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> k
[12:45:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So, this'll be sort of interesting
[12:46:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it'll be starting to chart a course to where we want the whole community to end up
[12:46:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> How should the infrastructure look?
[12:46:17 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> will this reuse some of what heidi is working on with idi's site?
[12:46:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm hoping so, yes
[12:46:45 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> k
[12:46:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The goal is to try to ultimately create a "meta theme" across WordPress, MediaWiki, and a few of the other tools we use a lot
[12:46:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> using the FSS
[12:47:10 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah
[12:47:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Rumor has it that greggy1 has been playing around with FSS and UI Options in MediaWiki, but I'm not sure how it relates to the current Inclusive Learning Design Handbook theme for Media Wiki, if it all
[12:47:40 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> oh?
[12:47:47 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> what a good rumor
[12:47:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm hoping Justin_o can set greggy1 up on the IDI Github site
[12:47:55 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> aren't you supposed to spell it rumour?
[12:47:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and he can share his work with the community
[12:48:01 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> the queen must be ashamed
[12:48:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm an adaptive speller
[12:48:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> you're American, so I talk all American-like
[12:48:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> without U's
[12:48:31 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> lol
[12:48:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and with less ehs
[12:48:34 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> loul
[12:48:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So, huslage, what will the world look like?
[12:48:58 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> you tell me
[12:49:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We'll have at least three Media Wiki instances to support
[12:49:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> before too long
[12:49:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> One for the ILDH, which we already have
[12:49:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> handbook.floeproject.org
[12:49:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> A wiki for the IDI, which Heidi'll work on before too long
[12:49:39 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> colinclark: I'm waiting for a more stable version of UI options before putting it up on Git. If its stable now, see what I can do over the next few days to rework and post the theme. The theme is a copy of the current ILDH with UI options added
[12:49:53 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> cool!
[12:50:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> greggy1: Check out my email to the list about integrating UI Options into a WordPress theme over the weekend
[12:50:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> And you can decide if it's stable enough for your taste or not
[12:50:30 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> k
[12:50:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think everyone would certainly love to see it
[12:50:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> even before it's fully baked
[12:50:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o can get you hooked up on Github
[12:50:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i can add greggy1 to the github
[12:50:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> greggy1: what's your github id?
[12:51:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> huslage: And then a new MediaWiki for the "Fluid Studios" showcase or whatever we call it, ultimately
[12:51:16 CDT(-0500)] <greggy1> colinclark: I'll post it to my Git hub repos
[12:51:16 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> k
[12:52:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> huslage: Do you know if MW has any kind of multisite support? Or how you'd recommend growing into it?
[12:53:03 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it does, that's how they do it at wikipedia
[12:53:11 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> but it's kind of a pain
[12:53:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> how come?
[12:54:18 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it's all namespace munging
[12:54:26 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i need to look into it some more
[12:54:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Oh yes
[12:54:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I remember MW namespaces were a bit of a nightmare
[12:55:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and unfortunately you had to build your site in a namespace-aware way
[12:55:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so we'd likely have to do some retrofitting of existing sites
[12:55:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yes
[12:55:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> a lot
[12:57:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so i'm thinking we just do a bunch of instances
[12:57:44 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> based off of one codebase
[12:58:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> huslage - would the JIRA upgrade enable us to put

 
sections into our JIRAs?
[12:58:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The main JIRA docs site has always suggested this was possible...
[12:58:31 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> Bosmon: no clue
[12:58:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But I couldn't work out whether the reason why it didn't work was because we had such an old version or because we had it misconfigured...
[12:58:58 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i'll look into it when we get the authentication problems fied
[12:59:00 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> fixed
[12:59:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: What is the feature? Just Confluence-style formatting of code snippets?
[13:11:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark - jus that
[14:55:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jameswy: Just making some notes to organize my thoughts
[14:55:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> about the Fluid Studios
[14:55:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The infrastructure part is the easiest, because it's tangible
[14:55:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> For now, it seems simplest to assume that we'll just need three things to start, right?
[14:55:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> For October
[14:55:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> A mailing list for conversation
[14:56:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> An IRC room for synchronous collaboration
[14:56:21 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and a wiki to both showcase their projects and document and share their work
[14:56:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> seem about right?
[14:57:25 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: We have talked, you and I, a number of times, about some high-level "things to do" for collaborators within the Fluid community
[14:57:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> technical things, community expectations, etc.
[14:57:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We were imagining these in the context of a production project, the GPII
[14:57:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but perhaps some of those basic techniques/principles will also be useful for the Studios
[14:58:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Do any particular ideas come to mind?
[15:00:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I had forgotten that, right at the beginning of the project, I had attempted to write something like this about our goals as a community--pretty awkwardly put, in retrospect: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Project+Vision
[15:01:58 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> colinclark: Another component of Fluid Studios would be some space on the main site for it too, though I imagine that's of lower priority right now than getting the main infrastructure up
[15:02:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yep
[15:02:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but you're right
[15:02:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> we want to highlight this
[15:04:40 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> colinclark, anastasiac, michelled: I'm going home now to prepare tomorrow's slides on my laptop--if there's anything you want to send me (project ideas, and whatever else), email it over by tomorrow noonish?
[15:04:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> sure
[15:05:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll send along a few slides later this afternoon, jameswy
[15:06:06 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Cools, thanks.
[15:07:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: hi
[15:15:09 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> hi colinclark
[15:16:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Got a sec?
[15:16:33 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> sure - I'm trying to stop on the cue parsing bug but it keeps running out from under my foot
[15:16:39 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> stomp
[15:18:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> (smile)
[15:18:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's been interesting to reflect on how we govern ourselves
[15:18:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> as Fluid
[15:18:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> we really don't have much in the way of rules
[15:19:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and they're all quite specific to fostering code and "product" quality
[15:19:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think, actually, that's quite apt
[15:19:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and a sign of our strength
[15:19:20 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> (smile)
[15:19:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> As I keep boiling it down, I guess there maybe a few core issues that apply, regardless of the sort of work one might be doing
[15:19:46 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> we have unwritten rules I think - or maybe it's just project culture. primarily respect everyone
[15:19:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes
[15:19:55 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> those are worth writing down at some point
[15:20:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess the Studios will be interesting in that they will be informal
[15:20:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> they needn't have things like commit access standards and other things
[15:20:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> necessarily
[15:20:32 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> well
[15:20:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> or they can be worked out on a project-by-project basis
[15:20:43 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> doesn't the initiator of the project get some say in that?
[15:20:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> go for it, huslage
[15:20:44 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah
[15:20:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes
[15:20:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> exactly
[15:20:56 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> this seems more like a mozilla drumbeat type deal
[15:21:05 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> (smile)
[15:21:06 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> as you walk down the requirements
[15:21:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes, that's exactly what we're get at (smile)
[15:21:26 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> hm..
[15:21:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think we'll just not do some of the things they did
[15:21:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah
[15:21:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which strike me as less successful
[15:21:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> being...
[15:21:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> project hosting
[15:21:42 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> like make a crappy website
[15:21:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes, like that (smile)
[15:21:50 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i mean, sorry mozilla friends.
[15:22:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We never were able to get our heads around how we could meaningful use our Drumbeat site for Floe
[15:22:14 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> there's just nothing there to foster a community
[15:22:16 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark: don't you think we'll host some of the projects?
[15:22:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so that happens separately
[15:22:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> a wiki and Github should suffice, I imagine
[15:22:26 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah. the community is pretty important
[15:22:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> what do you think, michelled?
[15:22:46 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i'm not sure a wiki is quite right, but it'll work for now
[15:22:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Eventually, our build infrastructure, too
[15:22:53 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> wikis of this nature tend to rot pretty badly.
[15:23:09 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> for example pulkit's images editor would be a nice thing to have a nightly build of
[15:23:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I suspect that anything of this nature rots
[15:23:19 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so we need a function that allows intake of a project, development and then outflow
[15:23:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yes, i have it on my to do list to write something about builds, michelled
[15:23:25 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> some sort of little process
[15:23:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and then I figure huslage can just go for it
[15:23:31 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> woot
[15:23:36 CDT(-0500)] * huslage goes for it
[15:23:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It seems to me that there are maybe three core things that make a project "Fluidic"
[15:24:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Its engagement with user experience, inclusion, and the web
[15:24:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The willingness to work in the open and share the design/development process with a larger community
[15:24:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Open source licensing
[15:25:17 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> that sounds about right colinclark
[15:25:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled or huslage, do you think I'm missing other things?
[15:25:36 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> yeah that sounds good
[15:25:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So huslage is right that, at some point, we'll need some sort of simple model for people to express a desire to participate
[15:25:44 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark: any open source license?
[15:25:48 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> inclusion is pretty vague though.
[15:25:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which gives them access to the infrastructure
[15:25:54 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> of course maybe that's a good thing
[15:26:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> we can be a bit more specific
[15:26:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> some vagueness is nice
[15:26:10 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but not too much
[15:26:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> We'll define inclusion in light of our notions of accessibility
[15:26:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> as being artifacts of the interaction with a user interface
[15:26:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> as opposed to an individual characteristic
[15:26:41 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> etc.
[15:27:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess, beyond participation, there's a couple of models for growth of projects
[15:27:33 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> 1. They incubate and make their way into a new or existing production-level project supported long-term by the community
[15:28:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> 2. They form an informal body of advice, examples, support
[15:28:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Meaning, they continue to live and grow but needn't ever become more formalized
[15:28:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> 3. They migrate somewhere else
[15:28:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> 4. They serve their purpose and eventually are archived
[15:28:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: Your license question...
[15:28:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's an interesting one
[15:29:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm willing to leave it open for people to choose, with the default being Apache 2.0 and Creative Commons for non-code
[15:29:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Apache 2.0 being virtually identical to ECL 2.0, but without its dead-endedness (wink)
[15:29:59 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> sounds good
[15:30:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Or alternatively, we could continue with the standard ECL/BSD split
[15:30:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and that way reuse our existing CLA
[15:31:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and ask people to sign it, formally granting the license
[15:31:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which keeps people in the spirit of "hey, I'm going to build this in a community, not just for myself"
[15:32:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess the only other thing we might be missing is issue tracking
[15:32:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's a pretty core part of doing the community thing
[15:32:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I mean, for example, how does Pulkit track his issues?
[15:32:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Perhaps the most appropriate thing to do is to encourage people to use their favourite hosted service
[15:32:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> for now
[15:32:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> by himself unfortunately
[15:33:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I really quite love Github's issue tracker for Flocking
[15:33:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> https://github.com/colinbdclark/Flocking/issues
[15:33:28 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I was liking it too when I was using it and it really didn't have many features at that time
[15:34:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> keeping it simple works for me
[15:34:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> less infrastructure for huslage to install, and then for us to have to figure out how to maintain long term
[15:34:48 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i like it too
[15:34:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> If Github ever goes rogue, I can imagine something will rise up to replace it fairly quickly
[15:34:55 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i'm not worried about that
[15:35:08 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i was thinking about suggesting we move our JIRA over to github
[15:35:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I actually think it's worth worrying about...
[15:35:15 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> because it doesn't suck
[15:35:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> particularly given our experience with Atlassian
[15:35:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's not that they went rogue
[15:35:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's just that their business decisions don't align with some of our fundamental needs as a community
[15:35:47 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Github risks the same problem
[15:35:52 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> sure, but even open source software has the same issue
[15:35:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> right
[15:36:01 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> and it's not like we have time to customize anything
[15:36:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but the question is, what freedom do we have
[15:36:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Well, we don't have time to customize everything
[15:36:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> But we're quite willing to participate in community to help make things more accessible
[15:36:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> look at our work on jQuery UI
[15:36:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> plus
[15:36:42 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> no bug system out there is any good
[15:36:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Another example is Mozilla's new documentation system for MDN
[15:37:00 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I think it's quite likely that at some point, anastasiac will be lending a hand making it accessible
[15:37:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> without the ability to do that, our autonomy is severely limited
[15:37:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and it's not like, for example, screen reader support is an "optional feature" for our community
[15:37:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> true
[15:37:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's a tough spot to be in
[15:37:50 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> that bugs me more than github going rogue
[15:37:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> because in many ways I'd love to just switch to Github, too
[15:38:12 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> isn't MDN just mind touch?
[15:38:19 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> btw
[15:38:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yeah, that's the interesting thing
[15:38:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> they're using Mindtouch at the moment
[15:38:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but they're working on a replacement
[15:39:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> the first feature is, of course, to be able to import all MDN data from Mindtouch
[15:39:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I figure it's probably still a year away
[15:39:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but they're actively working on it
[15:39:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Kuma is the name
[15:39:29 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> ok
[15:40:09 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> anyway, if we want to go on a mad search for a better bug system that is more extensible for our studio friends, that's fine, but I'd just assume recommend they use github to start
[15:40:25 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> we want to steer people one direction i think
[15:40:34 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> well, that's the magic of not prescribing something
[15:40:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> (smile)
[15:40:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so we don't just create a mishmash of stuff
[15:40:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and not hosting anything new
[15:40:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> we can provide recommendations for people to try out
[15:41:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's a project they can explore themselves, particularly those who are students
[15:41:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> etc.
[15:41:04 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> someone uses google code, someone else uses github, someone else hosts it on their linux box on their del line that dies every week
[15:41:20 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> dsl
[15:41:21 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> not del
[15:41:25 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i mean…that's not good for building community either
[15:41:40 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> nope
[15:41:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which, ultimately, speaks to the need for us, as a community, to find and use good tools
[15:41:58 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> meeting our community requirements
[15:42:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which includes being usable
[15:42:12 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> this is a bullet we can't dodge for long
[15:42:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Github's magnetism should ensure cohesion for the vast majority of people, already
[15:42:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> a
[15:42:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so…what about talking to github about accessibility
[15:42:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> and we're still gonna have to find that bug tracking system, one of these days
[15:42:49 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> use them as an example org
[15:42:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon met their CEO not too long ago
[15:42:55 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> he might well have some insights into that
[15:43:01 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> help them get up to speed and become a leader
[15:43:08 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> good press for both of us then
[15:43:13 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> and good work
[15:43:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it sure would be nice
[15:44:11 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> or what about launchpad?
[15:44:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I don't know much about it
[15:44:30 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it's open source-ish
[15:44:37 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> canonical runs it
[15:44:42 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> but it's based on bzr
[15:44:55 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> you don't NEED to put your code there though
[15:45:07 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> you can just use it for mailing lists, issues, community stuff
[15:45:16 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> people do that on the openstack project
[15:45:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> http://blog.launchpad.net/general/launchpad-is-now-open-source
[15:45:53 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Oh, look, it's our old friend Karl, too
[15:47:31 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> anyway, it scales nicely and is pretty solid.
[15:47:41 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> but it's just another not bugzilla option (smile)
[15:48:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yeah
[15:48:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Sometimes I think we should just use Bugzilla
[15:48:15 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> (tongue)
[15:48:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> oh look. you can import git branches into launchpad now too
[15:49:35 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> another neat feature of launchpad is that it's an openid provider and can store ssh keys (smile)
[15:49:53 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> so provisioning stuff will be easier, potentially, because we can just create users as needed
[15:50:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> can you elaborate?
[15:51:30 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it has a key server built in. so you can dump your ssh public keys into it and then when we provision servers, you'll just be able to magically login.
[15:51:48 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> also…when you use it as an openID provider, you can use your login for SSO
[15:51:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ah, interesting
[15:52:47 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> it's pretty easy to use too, not perfect, but not horrid either
[15:53:06 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i imagine it's a bit more accessible than github too since it's pretty much page based
[15:54:27 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> anyway…bunch of ideas
[15:54:34 CDT(-0500)] <huslage> i need to go. getting kicked out