fluid-work IRC Logs-2011-03-24

[08:24:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jessm, do you have permissions to change the channel topic? it's not working for me
[08:24:24 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> lemme see
[08:24:56 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> hrm, no go for me too
[08:25:00 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> it's /topic right?
[08:25:23 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> yes, e.g /topic #fluid-work Documentation sprint today!
[08:25:28 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> at least, that's what i thought
[08:25:54 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i tried something similar and no-go
[08:26:00 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i didn't think we had ops in this channel
[08:26:02 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> ops
[08:26:20 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> we don't seem to have an op
[08:32:48 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i think i've seen Justin_o or colinclark change the /topic
[08:33:35 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jessm: i just tried.. didn't work.. i looked at the channel settings in colloquy and it says the topic can only be changed by an operator
[08:34:33 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: try to change topic now
[08:34:57 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> nope
[08:35:07 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I'm not an op
[08:35:22 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: did you try again?
[08:35:44 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> yes, I did
[08:35:48 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> meh
[08:36:03 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> grrrrr
[08:38:39 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> we seem to be in a conundrum – to grant ops we need someone to have ops
[08:38:43 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> no one here has ops
[08:38:50 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> JASIGLogBot: are you an op?
[08:38:57 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> (smile)
[08:40:58 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> ChanServ says #fluid-work isn't registered
[08:41:01 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i'll look into this
[08:43:22 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jessm, fyi I believe Colloquy displays the icons for ops differently, with a red background, so you can tell
[08:43:37 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> k
[08:44:01 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> jessm: just do /msg chanserv help register
[08:44:16 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> it will walk you through it
[08:44:27 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jamon: roger that
[08:45:06 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> must be channel op to register
[08:45:16 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> ok, we're stuck – let's wait for colin, i believe he has ops
[08:45:27 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> get him to set the channel to +f
[08:46:10 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> fluid-everyone: Today is the first day of our Documentation Sprint!
[08:46:19 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> we have some topic ideas on the wiki, at http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Docs+Sprint+Planning
[08:46:22 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> also, for registered channels, i think freenode typically uses ##fluid-work, with a redirect from #fluid-work
[08:46:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> let me know what you'd like to work on, or if you'd like a suggestion
[08:48:27 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> anastasiac: when would be a good time to restart the wiki? perhaps over the weekend or next week? atlassian are asking me to do a complete shutdown to set some flags in teh database for notifications
[08:48:31 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> jessm: ^
[08:48:46 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> k
[08:48:56 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jamon, certainly not today!! (smile)
[08:49:18 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> anastasiac: heh, yeah for sure
[08:49:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> justin_o, I think you were planning to do some git writing, weren't you?
[08:49:39 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: yes i am
[08:49:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> is that still open
[08:49:57 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> indeed
[08:50:26 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: not sure about specific docs, but i'm ready to do some wiki cleanup if needed today
[08:51:30 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jessm, that's always helpful. Alternatively, have you had a look a the latest images in the style suggest page, with jhung's ideas for the tech docs? feedback on that is always helpful
[08:52:41 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: i had a glance, yes, i'll take a deeper gaze
[08:52:48 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac, jessm: Yep. Feedback on that is good. But I haven't uploaded the latest updates with the Demo pages yet. Still working through some navigation issues.
[08:52:52 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled, how would you feel about improving our Options Merging documentation, based on the info you put together for the cspace crowd?
[08:53:09 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: ping me when they're up?
[08:53:12 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> anastasiac: I'll give it a go
[08:53:28 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Docs+Sprint+Planning
[08:53:33 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> thx
[08:53:34 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: sure. Going to work through some of the issues with Erin and jameswy this morning.
[08:56:52 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, good morning. Yesterday you referred to your conversation with eric, and the need for signposts. Was that conversation in the channel or on the list, and if so, do you remember roughly when it was (so I can find the transcript)?
[08:58:13 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: did you need me to update the doc sprint page with the git doc stuff i'm doing?
[08:58:24 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, already done (smile)
[08:58:30 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: thanks (wink)
[09:16:38 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, good morning - are you up for some writing today?
[09:16:49 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> good morning (smile) sure
[09:17:04 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> what would you like to work on?
[09:17:34 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> do you have the wiki link handy with all the topics?
[09:17:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Docs+Sprint+Planning
[09:18:40 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> i can work on the uploader error handling
[09:18:50 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, we spoke yesterday about the possibility of a tutorial on how to NOT use some parts of the Uploader.. I was also wondering about the error handling that's being added to Uploader, where that's at and if it cou
[09:18:57 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> ah you interrupted me (smile)
[09:19:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I was thinking of you for the uploader handling, mlam. Is that something uploader specific, or is the error handling code something that could be used in any component?
[09:19:32 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> oops (smile) sorry. the error handling is in the repo, but is awaiting review
[09:19:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> it's uploader-specific
[09:20:13 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> ah, well, it wouldn't hurt to spend a bit of time writing up what you know so far, so long as you put a caveat at the top of the page. It can be promoted
[09:20:27 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Oh ok
[09:20:32 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Sure I can do that
[09:20:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> if it's in your head now, mlam, might as well get it out, before you forget it (wink)
[09:20:39 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> gotcha (smile)
[09:21:42 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> anastasiac: is there a home for these new docs?
[09:22:19 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> fluid-everyone: if you're creating new docs and don't know where to put them, feel free to just add them as children of the docs planning page: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Docs+Sprint+Planning We can organize them easily later
[09:47:01 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: done with the new uploader demo changes. anastasiac, i'm wondering what i can help with the document writing. there are 2 topics off the top of my head but both is not on ur docs planning. one is how to use uploader, the other is the test plan for the new uploader demo.
[09:48:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> cindyli: thanks.. i'm hoping early next week we can get the code review done and replace the old image gallery with it
[09:48:11 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: great
[09:48:41 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> cindyli, it would be great to have some help. "how to use the uploader" sounds good. We have an existing tutorial but it might not be very good. since you have some pretty recent experience, you might be able to improve it, or come up with something better
[09:49:12 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> cindyli, what we have already is at http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Uploader+Tutorial - have a look, and see what you can do with it!
[09:49:14 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> anastasiac: certainly. will start by modifying the old tutorial
[09:49:21 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> sure. thx
[09:53:09 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jessm, anastasiac, jhung, erin: Are you all up to getting together sometime this afternoon to do a brisk walkthrough of where we are overall on Fluid presence design?
[09:53:36 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jameswy: i can do after 2:30
[09:54:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jameswy, sure. I'll have to keep my eye on the channel, for the docs sprint, but an update on the web presence would be good
[09:54:28 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jessm, anastasiac, jhung, erin: 3 PM?
[09:54:50 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> sounds good
[09:55:08 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> roger that
[09:55:08 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jameswy, erin isn't in the channel...
[09:55:21 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Lol, so she isn't. I'll ping her outside.
[10:04:27 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm, anastasiac, jameswy: I gotta scoot at 4:15p. So 3p is fine if we can keep it pace brisk.
[10:11:48 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: would you be able to help to answer this student's question? http://atutor.ca/view/12/21951/1.html
[10:13:24 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: the project he refers to is http://wiki.atutor.ca/display/atutorwiki/Google+Summer+of+Code+2011#GoogleSummerofCode2011-2.ATutorInstructor%2FAdministratorMobileTheme
[10:13:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> cindyli: thanks i'll take a look
[10:14:09 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: thx very much!
[10:17:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> cindyli: so it looks like the student has some questions about the functionality of fss and infusion, and some questions about what can be changed modified as part of the project.. i can definitely answer the first part, but someone else should make sure that those things are in the scope of the project
[10:20:30 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: good point. it might be out of the scope of the project. can u answer the first part? i will try finding the right person for the second part.
[10:20:46 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> cindyli: thanks
[10:21:01 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> Justin_o: thank YOU!
[10:51:18 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> mlam: does the uploader change that is to return server response in onFileSuccess and onFileError make into the trunk? if not, anastasiac, i'm not sure if i should include this into tutorial
[10:52:05 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> cindyli, Yes, it's in trunk
[10:52:28 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> mlam: anastasiac, great. no more question, updating tutorial with it
[10:52:35 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> cindyli, I'd say go ahead an include it in the tutorial, then, with a comment that this will be "new in v1.4"
[10:53:29 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> anastasiac: thx.
[11:03:00 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> ping anastasiac
[11:03:25 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung: polo
[11:04:06 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Currently the "Developer's Handbook" is this: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/docs/Developer+Documentation ?
[11:04:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> hm...
[11:04:32 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> well, not exactly
[11:05:15 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> currently, the developer's handbook doesn't really exist. We have [Infusion Documentation] plus all the docs in the new docs space, but it's really just all mixed up
[11:05:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> why do you ask, jhung?
[11:06:12 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> trying to get a sense of how it's structured and how deep it will go. It will affect how we handle navigation.
[11:06:46 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, I suspect the Architecture diagrams I posted (Round 2) is probably a reasonable starting guide for that purpose
[11:06:56 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Documentation+Architecture+-+Round+2
[11:07:40 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Anastasiac: Ah. there it is. I had reproduced this tree in my wireframes but couldn't remember where it came from originally.
[11:12:14 CDT(-0500)] <clown> jamon: FYI: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/TestingDistro
[11:13:25 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, just a heads-up that I sent smriti in your direction for guidance on using FSS with a CMS, since you have some experience with that. She might be pinging you about it
[11:13:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> sounds good
[11:14:25 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, maybe in answering her questions, you can come up with ideas for documentation for the topic (wink)
[11:14:38 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> hehe cool, ok
[11:15:03 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> clown: but i thought i was using fedora 14
[11:19:47 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: ping
[11:44:17 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: yep?
[11:44:51 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: nm. I figured it out.
[11:46:28 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> I was going to ask you about your throughts on collapsing trees / subtrees for deep information, but decided not to go that route.
[11:49:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o: surely anything can be modified as part of the project (tongue)
[11:50:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We would certainly never discourage anyone from making successful modifications to any part of the framework...
[11:50:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: I think I'm not sure what you are talking about
[11:50:44 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> or should say, refering to
[11:50:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, perhaps I'm not sure what I'm talking about either
[11:50:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just a sec
[11:51:26 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: ah ... are you talking about my conversation with cindyli
[11:51:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, I thought we were talking about one of our GSoC students
[11:51:50 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> oh (smile), yes.. that's for an aTutor project that uses some of our stuff
[11:52:10 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> my smiley face didn't work.. let me try that again (smile)
[11:52:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It worked for me... since I see smileys in glorious ASCII
[11:52:51 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> (smile)
[11:52:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hence I am free from this "standard confusion" about whether I am sticking my tongue out or not (tongue)
[11:53:03 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> u did
[11:53:15 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> All I see is a colon followed by a capital P
[11:53:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everything else is in your own mind (tongue)
[11:53:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> lol
[11:55:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: you might like this http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=120
[11:58:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wow, nice
[12:29:23 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> mlam: is the flash version of uploader only uses in IE and versions lower than IE9? Any exception?
[12:29:43 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> mlam: used
[12:36:04 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> hey Justin_o or anastasiac i have a question about subcomponents
[12:36:14 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> reading this page http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Subcomponents
[12:36:28 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> A subcomponent, in particular, need not be a Component or "View" - it may simply be any old that. Some subcomponents, however, are components
[12:37:16 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> ah, heidi_, that information on subcomponents is out-of-date now that we have IoC
[12:37:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, would you agree?
[12:37:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ah, i need to learn more about IoC i think
[12:38:06 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> anastasia: is there any documentation you want me to help out on?
[12:38:12 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it would likely help, heidi_. We have some introductory docs, and Bosmon will be writing more
[12:38:27 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: hmm.. i'm not entirely sure... i think it's probably still technically correct that they can just be functions, but I'd highly doubt we'd have very many examples of where it isn't some form of component
[12:38:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> anastasiac subcomponents are still a thing with IoC just used differently?
[12:38:55 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> harriswong, thanks! any help is great. Is there anything you're interested in writing about? What have you been working on that you feel you know something about, or what are you intersested in learning more about?
[12:39:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> There are more restrictions on subcomponents, now that we use IoC
[12:39:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which will need to be explained
[12:39:29 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Justin_o i was confused about "component or 'view'" ... a view is a component, is that what that meant? not one or the other?
[12:39:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, basically yes: The Inversion of Control (IoC) system allows components to declare what "subcomponents" they want, and the IoC system hooks them up
[12:39:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> A View is a kind of component... to be clearer now, we would call it a "viewComponent"
[12:40:22 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> okay. and it's still the case that subcomponents are defined as such because of their context, not their make-up
[12:40:23 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ?
[12:41:05 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the newer framework, it is more important to begin the creator function for something you call a "component" with one of the standard framework initialisation functions
[12:41:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Like initView or initLittleComponent
[12:41:18 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> anastasiac: i worked on pager and uploader, and reorderer, so i should know a bit to write about any of those
[12:41:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the olden days, you really could do just anything at all (tongue)
[12:41:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> heidi_, yes, a component is a component, and if another component "uses" it, then it could be considered a "sub"component
[12:41:55 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> In newer days, you can still do anything at all, but you can't expect "component options" to be resolved correctly if you don't initialise correctly
[12:42:14 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And really, I think we start to discourage people from "just writing random functions that do stuff" (tongue)
[12:42:28 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everything which appears in an IoC tree SHOULD "initialise like a component"
[12:42:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> and by initialise correctly does that mean, make it componenty?
[12:42:34 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Even if it returns some random other stuff
[12:42:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, it needs to start with one of those functions
[12:42:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Currently we have three
[12:42:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> initLittleComponent, initView or initRendererComponent
[12:43:01 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Each one gives you access to more features than the last
[12:43:10 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> harriswong, the docs sprint planning page (http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Docs+Sprint+Planning) lists a couple of questions that have come up from users about the Pager - I wonder if you'd be interested in writing some small tutorial-style descriptions of how to do certain things?
[12:43:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> okay thanks Bosmon - that helps!
[12:43:58 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> harriswong, under the "FAQ" section near the bottom of the page... there are links to the conversations, which would help you to understand what the questions were
[12:44:09 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> and there will be documentation soon that describes those 3 Bosmon?
[12:44:11 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> anastasiac: on it!
[12:44:14 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> and also probably provide the answers!
[12:44:20 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> thanks, harriswong!
[12:45:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> np
[12:45:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon and heidi_, there is a start at docs for initRendererComponent, at http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/docs/fluid.initRendererComponent
[12:46:05 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ok thanks
[12:46:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess it is important to start to tell people that they should gradually stop writing creator functions at all
[12:50:38 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac, michelled_: anything else you think i should add to this page http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/GIT+Tips+and+Tricks
[12:50:42 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It's a bit of a brutal change all in one release
[12:50:46 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> maybe something on pull requests
[12:51:05 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But we should try all the same (tongue)
[12:51:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I mean, it may never be FORBIDDEN to write creator functions... as per the discussion we had with Colin a week or two back
[12:51:46 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But somehow we should inform people that it is no longer "preferable" ...
[12:52:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: did you want to deprecate it?
[12:52:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well... that's going a bit far
[12:52:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And WHERE would we deprecate it? (tongue)
[12:52:47 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I mean, one can deprecate particular framework functions
[12:52:52 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> the docs i guess...
[12:52:55 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, michelled, something about pull requests would be helpful - not sure about the location? maybe on a more "How we work" kind of page?
[12:52:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But I'm not sure how we would set about deprecating the general practice of writing creator functions...
[12:53:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> "But Captain, I am wearing sandals.... how would one set about filling a pair of sandals?"
[12:53:43 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> (smile)
[12:54:30 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> in terms of how we go about discouraging people from writing creator functions: probably in a number of places in the docs: the general "how to get started," the "best practices" - anywhere else we think it might be helpful to mention it
[12:54:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes well, it's an odd kind of issue
[12:54:50 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And I'm not really sure how best to approach it
[12:55:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But this relates to our general absence of something like an "on ramp" in any case
[12:55:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It depends a lot what kind of audience we are talking to
[12:56:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Some people just want to use the framework as a batch of components and a few utility functions, and have a lot of their own stuff
[12:56:25 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Other people want to get the most value from the framework they can
[12:56:39 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We need to perhaps have slightly different answers to these sets
[12:58:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: i'm going to start updating our Coding and Commits standards with our post move to git changes
[12:58:28 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, great - thanks!
[12:59:09 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, +1 for different answers to "how do I use the framework" depending on the audience
[13:16:05 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> mlam: is the flash version of uploader only used by IE and versions lower than IE9? Any exception?
[13:16:19 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Yes, that's right.
[13:16:35 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> I'll have to double check with IE9 to make sure which version of the uploader is run
[13:18:59 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> thx. another quesiton is, in the current tutorial, uploader is initialized with "var myUpload = fluid.progressiveEnhanceableUploader(".flc-uploader", ".fl-progEnhance-basic", ...", but in uploader demo that comes with infusion and the way i'm using in image gallery is via templateURL. i wonder if fluid.progressiveEnhanceableUploader is still in use?
[13:19:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> cindy - it is deprecated - in the next release it will probably go away
[13:20:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> cindyli, this is exactly the kind of updating we need - yes, please update the tutorial to reflect the preferred way of initializing!
[13:20:39 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> thanks!
[13:20:45 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> thx Bosmon. so it's fine that i update the tutorial with the new strategy
[13:20:55 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> anastasiac: ic. np.
[14:01:26 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> anastasiac, jessm, jhung: ready for our chat?
[14:01:44 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jameswy, right! thanks for the reminder. launching Skype...
[14:01:47 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> ready
[14:01:52 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> yup
[14:01:58 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> Can someone with high-bandwidth host the call?
[14:02:03 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> (and bring Erin in too)
[14:03:08 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jamswy, I can try to host
[14:03:22 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> anastasiac: Thanks
[14:03:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> never done it, so give me a sec
[14:06:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> anastasiac: i have finished with the http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Coding+and+Commit+Standards
[14:06:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Justin_o, excellent, thanks!
[14:07:12 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> no problem.. i'm going to start hunting around for legacy subversion references in the wiki
[14:19:11 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> Justin_o: I finally read your git tips and tricks page
[14:19:26 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: thanks...
[14:19:30 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> there are some things that I use as part of my working process which might be useful
[14:19:40 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> but I guess everyone has a different working process
[14:19:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> things like 'git diff <commit> <commit>'
[14:20:01 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> and 'git reset --hard <commit>'
[14:20:35 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: those are good thanks
[14:20:56 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> also the -p flag with log
[14:21:14 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: do you think i should include any information about creating/applying patches and pull requests
[14:21:46 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> I think you might want to include something about github, forking and pull requests
[14:21:55 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> you probably already have the content in the primer
[14:22:10 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> but it's less likely that someone will go through the primer then just read the wiki page
[14:22:29 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> I don't think you need to include anything about patches
[14:22:48 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay thanks
[14:23:02 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> let me know if you think of anything else too please
[14:26:26 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> Justin_o: I was looking over the coding and commit standard page - do we still have the concept of a scratchpad an incubator?
[14:26:37 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: i just updated that page
[14:26:42 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> those should have been removed
[14:27:06 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> they are still mentioned in the pushing to the project repo during bug parade section
[14:27:12 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> hmm..
[14:27:15 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> looks like i missed a line
[14:27:32 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> i think i forgot to delete that one.. i'll do it now.. thanks
[14:27:58 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay.. should be better now
[14:28:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled_: ^
[14:28:15 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> yep, thanks (smile)
[14:32:14 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> Justin_o: I think you should add instructions on deleting a branch to the git tips and tricks page
[14:32:35 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> sure
[15:29:04 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, just had a look at your uploader error handler page - nice! does the uploader actually do that now?? slick!
[15:30:01 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, is the error handler something that is at all configurable? will we need docs on how to configure it?
[15:30:16 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> thanks anastasiac, the uploader is missing one of the server errors from that mock up, so I'll talk to colin when he gets back to see if we're going to implement that. i have a feeling not since Flash isn't good at reporting server errors. I'll adjust the screenshot afterwards.
[15:32:12 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> It does have it's own defaults block, so yes, it's configurable. The error message text can be modified
[15:32:30 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> But not much else.
[15:33:02 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> Is that something we should include?
[15:33:19 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> well, I guess it should be added to the api page
[15:33:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, does the error handler actually work right now? should it work on the build site?
[15:34:02 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> It does work, but it hasn't been pushed into the production repo...it's still awaiting final code review
[15:34:21 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, cool, that explains why it's not working on the build site (wink)
[15:34:24 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> (smile)
[15:34:38 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> but it's definitely planned to be released with 1.4
[15:51:25 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, I have a question about the recent changes you made to the Uploader demo, to show both methods of creation
[15:51:53 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Is the plan to soon 'deprecate' the older non-IoC method in the demo? why are we showing both techniques?
[15:55:31 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[15:55:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think this is a "2 audiences" issue again
[15:55:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think it is essential, for the indefinite future, that all of our components are actually constructible by means of function calls (tongue)
[15:56:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> otherwise it would be very hard to advertise the to the wider community that they are actually usable
[15:56:51 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> However, for people who use the framework in a serious way, it is similarly essential that they can be constructed as part of an IoC tree
[15:56:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Actually this "duality" is something we usually get for free
[15:57:18 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> but as a result of the Uploader being a component that can "progressively enhance" ITSELF there are still some wrinkles at the moment
[15:57:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> anastasiac - what is the news on "alternative documentation platforms"?
[15:57:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Have we found anything we like much better than Confluence?
[15:58:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Certainly I would have thought it shouldn't be hard (smile)
[15:58:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, I'm starting to post my copious notes on the wiki, and I'm continuing to experiment with the 4 short-runners
[15:58:32 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Evaluations+of+Platforms
[15:58:39 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Thanks
[15:58:59 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> my thoughts on the Uploader demos: we should split them out in to two distinct demos, not try to combine the code for the two into one JS file
[15:59:24 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do you have any notes on their suitability for documentation in particular?
[15:59:37 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it adds a layer of indirection that could be quite confusing for new users who are looking for the exemplar on how to implement the Uploader
[15:59:43 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, that's probably right
[15:59:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> This should really go into the "Uploader.html" file which is part of the component itself
[16:00:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I don't know
[16:00:06 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It should REALLY go into a unit test (tongue)
[16:00:11 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But we don't have any of those yet
[16:00:15 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, I don't have specific conclusions re suitability for documentation - all of them are probably equally capable of displaying our docs
[16:00:30 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> the challenge is to provide the community-creation aspect well
[16:00:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> anastasiac - well, I think a crucial part of our documentation is that it ceases to just be "human-created content", don't you agree?
[16:00:48 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> no, I don't agree at all
[16:00:53 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We really need to assess these platforms for their suitability for hosting automatically generated content
[16:00:59 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am talking about API documentation
[16:01:04 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> We can't continue to keep editing these by hand
[16:01:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> machine-generated documentation sucks, including api docs
[16:01:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just because examples of it you have seen so far suck, doesn't mean that the concept itself should be discarded (smile)
[16:01:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> we would have an equal burden of editing the comments in the code by hand if we switch
[16:01:38 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It is more work than we can manage as a community to keep them up to date
[16:01:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> No, we would have half the burden
[16:01:51 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> could you direct me to some exemplar generated docs?
[16:01:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Right now we have the burden of editing the code comments AND keeping the auto-docs in step (smile)
[16:02:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> you have a good point about keeping them up-to-date
[16:02:35 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Sometimes there are no exemplars of things one needs to do right (tongue)
[16:02:47 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I did look at JavaScript-parsing docs generators
[16:02:48 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But that doesn't mean one should give up trying
[16:03:19 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I think if we want to do that, we'd have to write our own. existing ones are not well equiped to deal with our namespacing practices and produce docs the way we'd want
[16:03:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, for sure, we will need to write some of our own infrastructure for this
[16:03:48 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> perhaps I could investigate the options in more detail
[16:04:02 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But I am imagining that an important difference between the platforms you are evaluating could be that they are more or less amenable to forming part of a system like this
[16:04:07 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> right now, I'm focusing on a platform for the docs that will be community-edited
[16:04:17 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The platform needs to support both
[16:04:37 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> A system that it is enjoyable for both human beings and machines to use (tongue)
[16:05:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> well, I imagine an auto-gen system would output html and css. We could link to it from a mediawiki or wordpress or mindtouch system
[16:05:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I don't think that simply html and css will be adequate, as a result of exactly the issue you are describing
[16:05:44 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> These docs will need to coexist in some kind of stable way with pages that are human-edited
[16:05:54 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And so they will need to have some kind of "semantic" aspect
[16:06:10 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example - "THIS is the page which describes the options supported by the fluid.demands function in the 1.4 release"
[16:06:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> They also will need to refer to each other in some kind of stable way
[16:06:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do any of the platforms you have looked at seem like they might make this kind of thing easier?
[16:06:54 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> yeah, I think you're asking a h*** of a lot from a docs generator
[16:07:12 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> no, the systems I'm looking at are either wikis or CMSs
[16:07:30 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> They may all the same contain some kind of semantics
[16:07:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> there isn't much out there that's designed to integrate human-written docs with auto-gen docs
[16:07:48 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> what do you mean when you say "contain some kind of semantics"?
[16:08:00 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example the semantics in Wikimedia and confluence are pretty simple
[16:08:11 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> They have an idea of a "named string" which refers to a page with that title
[16:08:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> And in addition I guess they support some kind of "anchors" within pages
[16:08:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although I notice that Confluence is pretty rubbish about this, most of our anchors are usually broken
[16:08:45 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think because of some kinds of encoding and escaping issues
[16:09:05 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess this is a kind of baseline that any "wiki" type system offers in being able to refer to "a thing"
[16:09:11 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> confluence doesn't like some particular characters in anchors, but otherwise it's fine
[16:09:11 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> A string.... plus another string
[16:09:19 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am wondering if any of the systems can do any better than this
[16:10:15 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> all the systems I'm looking at are pretty sophisticated. What semantics, specifically, do you think would be necessary for integrating externally auto-generated docs into a human-written page?
[16:10:16 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Also, how easily scriptable the different systems are
[16:10:49 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example the operation of making a release will require us to take some pages which are presumably in some kind of namespace advertising them as the "current version" of something, and archive them
[16:10:56 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Into a namespace named for a particular version
[16:11:11 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> actually, we haven't done that in a number of releases
[16:11:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> yes, most likely because it involves so much work (tongue)
[16:11:40 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> and we probably won't be maintaining release-specific versions of docs - we decided that wasn't a high priority
[16:11:46 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It should be fairly easy to do something like "construct a URL to the documentation for fluid.demands in the current release"
[16:14:40 CDT(-0500)] <michelled_> Bosmon: we talked about the issue of release specific docs a while ago and came to the conclusion that following the jquery strategy of 'new in x.x' would be a better strategy
[16:14:40 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think we learned that jQuery don't have a completely automated system
[16:14:50 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> But do they really maintain every page by hand with no assistance?
[16:15:12 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://api.jquery.com/delegate/
[16:15:27 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> I mean, hopefully they don't have to link to this URL by hand every time they make a link (tongue)
[16:15:40 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although this doesn't require any more than the "one string" baseline that a wiki offers
[16:15:57 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> How does their "categories" system work?
[16:16:34 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> my understanding is they don't use autogeneration. they tried jsdoc, but it made the code less readable for the people working on it
[16:16:43 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> they use Wordpress to manage the docs
[16:16:58 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Interesting... and do they have a particular plugin they wrote for it?
[16:17:16 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/jQuery+comments+on+WordPress
[16:18:11 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Interesting
[16:18:20 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> It seems they use XSLTs
[16:18:22 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Awkward...
[16:18:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Thanks for the link (tongue)
[16:18:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do we have any idea how they author this XML?
[16:18:48 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Wordpress
[16:20:07 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://api.jquery.com/api/
[16:20:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Amazing...
[16:23:09 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> How does Wordpress help them edit the XML?
[16:25:23 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> The system of "categories" looks useful.... is this something supported out of the box by WordPress or is this more of their custom system?
[16:27:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I am evaluating Wordpress; they have categories, which are similar to tags. Out-of-the-box with WordPress, for blog posts, not for "pages", but it's most likely possible with customization. there's a plug-in for adding tags to pages, there's likely one for categories too
[16:29:26 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> That sounds cool
[16:29:36 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> So this XML format is somehow stored "natively"...
[16:35:33 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Wow... jQuery 1.5 now has Deffered and Promise
[16:35:41 CDT(-0500)] <Bosmon> Deferred, sorry (smile)