fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-04-07

Owned by Fluid IRC Log Bot
Last updated: Apr 07, 2010Version comment
12 min read

[16:58:09 EDT(-0400)] <jhung> Thanks everyone. I'll be online for a bit tomorrow and periodically for email.
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[09:26:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy and Justin_o: Any update on what you guys are thinking for the Dialog issue?
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[09:26:54 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: so jameswy and I have taken a look at it this morning with your changes...
[09:26:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[09:27:11 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> It's working (smile) and still looks good....
[09:27:22 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> we'll have to implement it on the other demo page as well though
[09:27:35 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> jameswy: did you want to mention your suggestions were for the interaction
[09:29:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy: Yes, I'm excited to hear your thoughts
[09:30:24 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> colinclark, justin_o: If we're going to avoid modal dialogues and going to a different page, then your quick demo was pretty good colinclark--I suggested an adjustment to it, to have a button at the top of the screen which toggles a panel that pushes the screen down. The panel would contain the UI options, but no preview, instead opting to change what's on the screen currently and immediately.
[09:31:28 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> The buttons save, reset to default, and cancel would be present in the panel as they already are now in all the other UI option designs/impelementations.
[09:32:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy: That sounds good to me
[09:32:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Honestly, I think we should consider our use of modality throughout the range of Fluid applications.
[09:32:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I realize that this will sounds like one of "my things," but there's some really interesting reading about modality
[09:32:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Jef Raskin's Humane Interface is on AC's desk, and he talks about modes throughout it--really interesting stuff
[09:33:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And of course, jameswy, you'd love it because he talks a lot about the design of the Macintosh
[09:33:20 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> (big grin)
[09:33:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I read a bit of Cooper last night and found that he was sort of fuzzy about the whole thing
[09:33:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Read naively, he seemed to be advocating for modal dialogs
[09:33:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> He said something to the effect of them being the "most understandable"
[09:34:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But yet, a bit later, he goes through a design exercise where he converts a dialog into a toolbar
[09:34:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Suggesting something interesting, which is that many of the things we stick into a dialog box can be better represented in other ways
[09:34:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Drawers, toolbars, and floating panels seem like great alternatives to modality
[09:35:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's something we face a lot in CollectionSpace, for example. It'd be fun to go through a design exercise as a community where we thought about ways to make these kinds of interactions non-modal
[09:35:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That essentially leaves us with modal dialogs for the cases where they're best suited--"stop everything because I need your help, user."
[09:35:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy: Am I making any sense?
[09:36:40 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> colinclark: Yep, I was just about to say that modal dialogues are pretty much our only choice when we need to force the user to make a decision.
[09:36:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The question, I guess, is when a decision is "do or die"
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[09:37:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I have a friend at Mozilla, Jono, who took Raskin's HCI course
[09:37:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And one of the projects was to design an operating system without using a single modal dialog
[09:37:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> He said it was really hard
[09:37:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (tongue)
[09:37:47 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> Yowzers!
[09:37:49 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> I can imagine!
[09:37:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But I also take that to mean Raskin thought it was worth trying (wink)
[09:38:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: FYI, I punted the escalated test for dialog/slider out of trunk and into the scratch pad
[09:38:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think, at some point, we should consider moving them all there
[09:38:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or to some special section outside of our code bundle
[09:39:16 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: agreed... that makes sense
[09:39:30 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i think we should probably also make them available on our build site if they aren't
[09:39:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That makes sense, yes Justin_o
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[09:41:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> hey michelled, super-quick question
[09:41:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The scratchpad is visible on the build server, right?
[09:41:42 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> now am I here?
[09:41:49 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: hiya
[09:42:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> he
[09:42:12 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> hi
[09:42:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes, colinclark the scratchpad is visible
[09:42:24 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> or at least was visible
[09:42:45 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: just to keep you up-to-date, i deleted the link to the online demo in the decapod 0.3 user guide in the wiki
[09:43:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, cool
[09:43:56 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks jessm
[09:44:06 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> np
[09:44:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> perhaps jameswy can add a link to the docs he's creating
[09:44:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: what docs are you creating?
[09:44:33 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: The 0.3 walkthrough.
[09:44:40 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> (that's what I'm supposed to be doing, right?)
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[09:45:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy: yes, totally! (smile)
[09:45:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: walkthrough? maybe you just need to sync me up on what that is so i feel good about us all knowing (smile)
[09:45:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o, yura: Ok, just to recap
[09:46:02 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: I think I'm supposed to writing a interface walkthrough of Decapod 0.3 to take the place of the demo.
[09:46:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: here's a link to something in the scratchpad: http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/scratchpad/FSOSS-2009/MobileInfusionApp/fliquor/html/fliquor.html
[09:46:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: writing it – so it'll be narrative?
[09:46:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o, yura: 1. We're going to commit my patch?
[09:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: It'll be pictures (screenshots) and words. My favourite!
[09:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: i heard screenshots stitched together in a low-budget experience. does that involve audio?
[09:46:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. We're going to modify the Sakai 3 UI Options demo in a similar fashion?
[09:46:56 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: ok, no audio then? just pics and text?
[09:47:10 EDT(-0400)] <yura> colinclark: yes i m on the demos right now
[09:47:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[09:47:24 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: That was my understanding. Did we want to go with a slideshow + audio? (colinclark, michelled)
[09:47:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Can you review my patch and Yura's for these demos? It should be very quick.
[09:47:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jameswy: Simple is good
[09:47:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: my vote is for pics + written narrative
[09:47:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> pics + a bit of "welcome to decapod" text
[09:48:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> introducing the release and what it can do, will do
[09:48:34 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: yep, I can review
[09:48:36 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: did you happen to have a chance to review bosmon's commits from yesterday?
[09:48:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> is there a patch I should look at now? colinclark
[09:50:40 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm, colinclark, michelled: pictures + words it is then.
[09:50:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Ask Justin_o. I have a patch, I'm just not sure if they're using it as-is
[09:50:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: I can review Boz's stuff in a few minutes
[09:51:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'll also look into our SVN history issues
[09:51:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> then I'll disappear into the Music Cave
[09:51:14 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: thanks
[09:51:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I wish it were cooler, like the Bat Cave
[10:11:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jamon: Are you around?
[10:11:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Quick question for you if you are.
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[10:37:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm: do we have a decapod meeting today?
[10:38:04 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> colinclark: hi
[10:38:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jamon: I cc'ed you on an email about Fluid's Maven repository. I'm keen to hear opinions from you and Antranig about what to do in that regard
[10:39:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In short, the Jasig community has kindly hosted our Maven repo for a year or two now, but they're getting out of the hosting business and moving to free open source hosting from Sonotype
[10:39:27 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> we can't move there too?
[10:39:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> No, I think we can
[10:39:52 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: i assumed – can you send an email? sorry, i'm just on a conf. call
[10:40:23 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I guess the issue is that it's scheduled for the same time as the Fluid monthly call
[10:40:34 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> colinclark: seems like a sort of one off that might be easier to host elsewhere? question in my mind is why is jasig stopping hosting maven? is it arduous, too much support?
[10:40:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jamon: A maven repo is, at heart, just a plain old Web site
[10:41:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess people are getting into graphical tooling for maintaining (adding/removing artifacts) Maven repos these days
[10:41:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I suspect that's why Jasig is making the move
[10:41:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I've never used these graphical tools, so we'll wait and see what Antranig thinks. He's used Jasig's tool quite a bit and made a lot of mistakes with it (wink)
[10:43:00 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> hosting svn is just a site to, but it's a world of pain to upgrade, thor is sitting on an out of date gentoo image because of cvs and svn. i'm wary of hosting another, but if it is dead-easy and doesn't require any complicated setup, i think that's ok
[10:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> s/to/too
[10:43:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[10:44:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura> i m ok
[10:44:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: eek!
[10:44:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ok, i'll ping joost and michael about that – they're online
[10:45:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> mpcutter: we have a meeting conflict with today's Decapod mtg. that starts in 15 minutes
[10:45:32 EDT(-0400)] <mpcutter> jessm: I see
[10:46:05 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> mpcutter: too many mtgs.! can we push the mtg. time back an hour? so it woudl start at 12 noon EDT?
[10:46:18 EDT(-0400)] <mpcutter> jessm: That's fine
[10:46:23 EDT(-0400)] <joost> what time would that be here?
[10:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <joost> ok, so 18:00 CET
[10:47:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> joost: eek! that's late
[10:47:01 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> sorry!
[10:47:07 EDT(-0400)] <mpcutter> joost: mind if I swing by the DFKI to use your skype connection?
[10:47:21 EDT(-0400)] <joost> np.
[10:50:31 EDT(-0400)] <mpcutter> Alright I will be there a bit early to get your comments on a few things (wink)
[10:55:46 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> colinclark, michelled, can you check that http://142.150.154.37 is working correctly? finish book and export button doesn't seem to do anything
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[11:01:41 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jamon: it's working as expected. the mockserver does not generate a pdf. Guess the button should be greyed out.
[11:01:47 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks!
[11:02:59 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm, jameswy: jamon has got the demo up
[11:03:17 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> do we still need our screenshot + narrative?
[11:03:58 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> it doesn't do anything but png i think, requires messing with a bunch of things, so i really hope that no one wants to deploy the server anywhere
[11:04:39 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: i think yes, we still need our screenshot + narrative
[11:05:12 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> also, it is liable to break at the slightest touch, so test multi-users now if possible
[11:06:05 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jamon: perhaps we can test this after the release and refine it so that it's sparkly for the next release
[11:08:23 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> jessm: i mean the demo is liable to fall over, i can't guarantee it will stay up and working for more than a few clicks at a time is all
[11:11:08 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jamon: sounds like definitely something to look at after release (smile)
[11:12:53 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> jessm: as long as the demo doesn't need to be running, that's fine, if it is a part of the release or people are going to try it out, then it can't be counted on is all i'm saying
[11:13:19 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> why is that jamon?
[11:14:31 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> michelled: right now it is running in a screen session so that i can log out of the console
[11:15:00 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> i also rewrote pieces of ocropus to make it run and can't vouch for the quality
[11:21:19 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jamon: yeah, the latest plan is to release w/o a live demo
[11:23:18 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jamon: if you changed the code then it's really not the release that is being demoed. Perhaps next week when Jon is back you can coordinate with him to get the changes back into ocropus.
[11:23:40 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks for looking into this!
[11:24:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jamon: Remember we talked about what constituted a "stable release demo?"
[11:25:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Going and changing released code to get it to run sort of breaks that criteria, no? (wink)
[11:25:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Looks like you've done the exploratory work for us to get this demo working for 0.4
[11:32:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hey all
[11:32:55 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> on phone, one sec
[11:32:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o and I are just talking about next steps
[11:33:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For Infusion 1.2
[11:33:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Especially since finally about to cave it up
[11:33:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o discovered that the Reorderer has some issues with tab focus, both in 1.1.2 and 1.2
[11:34:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> These can be seen on the latest Safari and FF3.6 (3.5 is fine)
[11:34:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here are our next steps:
[11:34:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1. Update the UI Options demos based on my patch and Justin_o/jameswy's conversation today
[11:35:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. Tag 1.2b1 release in SVN
[11:35:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 3. Email infusion-users with information about the beta release
[11:35:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 4. Continue with QA testing
[11:35:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 5. Look into this Safari/FF3.6 focus bug in the Reorderer
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[11:42:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: I've reviewed and closed all of Bosmon's fixes for Infusion 1.2. They all look good.
[11:42:29 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: thanks appreciate it
[11:42:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> He also said he might have some time to look into the Reorderer issue today
[11:43:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o and michelled: Issues that I'd like to get an extra pair of eyes on...
[11:43:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/ENGAGE-536
[11:44:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin committed patches from yura and more at r9784 and r9781 that could use a review
[11:44:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm particularly interested in ensuring that mobile home has the correct "toggle" in the head for development vs. deployment.
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[11:45:28 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: yes... wasn't sure what to do with that... so i reverted back
[11:45:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Do you know what to do now?
[11:45:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/ENGAGE-538
[11:45:58 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> also for those patches the ENGAGE_JQUERY_kettle.txt one wasn't used
[11:46:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[11:46:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/ENGAGE-339
[11:46:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Can you walk michelled through those commits at some point, just so she can take a quick look?
[11:47:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> As for the issue of mobile home's head, here's what you should do:
[11:47:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Have the deployment version of the JavaScript includes (the two custom builds) in the head, but commented out
[11:47:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Have the standard, one-by-one set of includes in the head, not commented out
[11:48:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This means that by default, everything works nicely for development
[11:48:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Upon release, we swap the comments and go.
[11:48:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I realize this is a horrendous workaround, but it will work and is analogous to what we do with fluid.fail()
[11:48:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Does that make sense?
[11:48:42 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: makes sense... i guess we will also have to add some comments to indicate what set of includes are in the concatenated ones
[11:48:51 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> but should all be pretty straight forward
[11:48:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> sure
[11:49:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Again, all of this can wait until after Infusion 1.2. I just don't want it to slip off our radar completely
[11:49:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok?
[11:49:46 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> yes makes sense.. although i might just go ahead and do it sooner rather than later so it won't be forgotten
[11:52:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[11:52:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Alright, so is there anything else I need to do before disappearing for the rest of the day?
[11:53:20 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i don't think there is anything else from me
[11:55:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, I'm gonna hit the road
[11:55:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> See you tomorrow
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[13:30:02 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: ping
[13:32:22 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: pong
[13:32:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> do you have anything we can help edit/look at?
[13:34:25 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: I'm doing it on the fly on the wiki
[13:34:31 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> You can find my working copy here: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Decapod+0.3+walkthrough
[13:34:49 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> cool
[13:35:49 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> looks nice
[13:36:43 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: Looks functional, (tongue)
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[14:45:41 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: Decapod 0.3 walkthrough is now more or less complete.
[14:45:49 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: cool
[14:45:59 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: wanna have a look with me? ^
[14:46:31 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> looks good to me
[14:49:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: can you point me to the readme?
[14:49:32 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> THE README (smile)
[14:49:52 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> http://source.fluidproject.org/svn/fluid/decapod/tags/decapod-0.3/README.txt
[14:49:54 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: looks good
[14:52:48 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm, michelled: so we're good for the official release? (big grin)
[14:53:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: writing the email now
[14:53:04 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (smile)
[14:53:08 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> schweet!
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[15:12:43 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jameswy: michelled: it's out there
[15:12:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> The Puppy has left the den
[15:12:57 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yay!
[15:13:39 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> thanks for all your hard work on this – it's intense!
[15:24:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> Justin_o: how are things going?
[15:25:06 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> jessm: michelled is reviewing yuras patch, antranig did some investigation for the the reorderer issue.. i think he is looking into some possible solutions
[15:27:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> Justin_o: and how is testing?
[15:28:23 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> jessm: i'm working on some uploader testing at the moment...
[15:29:16 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i'm slightly afraid that we may have to retest everything depending on what the fix for the reorderer issue is... i know when he was looking at it earlier... it looked like it might be a problem with the keyboard a11y plugin. If that is true then we would have to redo all testing
[15:30:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> oh wow
[15:30:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yikes
[15:30:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> when should we know that?
[15:30:57 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> jessm: not too sure... he's in and out.. so i'm not sure when there will be a definitive answer
[15:31:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ok
[15:31:25 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> so, should we continue testing? or wait?
[15:32:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> bbiab
[15:32:32 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> jessm: it's unfortunate about the uncertainty... but i don't think we should sink too many resources into it, in case we do have to do another full qa, but at the same time i don't think we should totally stop either.
[15:33:03 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> so i guess i can press on and do some testing, but if everyone else has enough work to do outside of testing... i wouldn't want to drag them in at this point
[15:46:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> Justin_o: Yura's patch is fine
[15:46:30 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> michelled: thanks for reviewing that... have you committed it?
[15:46:40 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> just about to