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fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-10-28

fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-10-28

Oct 28, 2010

[10:03:42 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Quick poll. For a layout reorderer, assuming that the item is already selected which phrase makes most sense in describing an item that can't be moved?
[10:03:46 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 1. "Locked"
[10:03:50 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 2. "Fixed"
[10:04:00 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 3. "Locked position"
[10:04:05 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 4. "Fixed position"
[10:04:18 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 5. "Locked item"
[10:04:24 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 6. "Fixed item"
[10:04:27 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 7. Other
[10:22:29 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: what does uPortal use? in-context use is helpful to know
[10:56:05 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: I should be more clear. I'm looking for text that will get read by an AT that indicates an item is locked. uPortal uses "The box cannot be placed higher in this column" which I don't think is the right context.
[10:56:43 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: So the phrase should be concise and clear. Currently we are proposing something like "Movable. Item 2 column 3. Quick brown fox."
[10:56:49 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: uPortal also has the concept of a locked portlet – what is the text used there?
[10:58:38 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: there is no text currently for the locked portlet. Not sure if it's because of the errors currently on the demo.
[11:03:54 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> athena: have you a moment to educate us?
[11:04:01 CDT(-0500)] <athena> sure
[11:04:12 CDT(-0500)] <athena> are we talking about the uportal nightly build or the static demo?
[11:04:39 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> athena: i seem to remember some pithy text on the uPortal demo for locked portlets – i think we were talking about the demo on build.fluidproject.org – is that right jhung?
[11:04:56 CDT(-0500)] <athena> the uportal trunk right now does indeed seem to say "The box cannot be placed higher in this column" which seems like silly message to me
[11:05:09 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we should probably say something more like "This portlet cannot be moved here"
[11:05:29 CDT(-0500)] <athena> incidentally your nightly build looks angry at the moment
[11:05:30 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> athena: i seem to remember it saying something different from what it says now
[11:05:40 CDT(-0500)] <athena> yeah, that seems quite plausible
[11:05:43 CDT(-0500)] <athena> not sure what happened
[11:05:58 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i'll have to change that
[11:06:22 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we're in the middle of changing how we handle message strings and i18n anyway
[11:06:45 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: did you try here? http://build.fluidproject.org/infusion/integration-demos/uportal/html/portal.html#
[11:07:06 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> athena: is the uportal build on our build site funky?
[11:07:17 CDT(-0500)] <athena> looks like
[11:07:30 CDT(-0500)] <athena> all the portlets seem to be broken
[11:08:09 CDT(-0500)] <athena> ah-hah!
[11:08:19 CDT(-0500)] <athena> ok, here's what the message is supposed to be: "This portlet cannot be moved here. The portlet underneath is locked."
[11:08:38 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i copied all our old XML-based messages into a shared messages.properties file last week
[11:08:47 CDT(-0500)] <athena> looks like i copied the wrong version of that message - they were both in there
[11:08:50 CDT(-0500)] <athena> thanks for the catch
[11:10:23 CDT(-0500)] <athena> oh heh.
[11:10:25 CDT(-0500)] <athena> even weirder
[11:10:27 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> athena: as for the funkiness – is that on us?
[11:10:45 CDT(-0500)] <athena> turns out the drop warning is in the page twice - so both the right and wrong markup are included in the HTML
[11:10:52 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i guess so? not quite sure what's going on there
[11:11:10 CDT(-0500)] <athena> we've been making a lot of changes lately
[11:11:15 CDT(-0500)] <athena> 3.3 M1 is imminent
[11:11:36 CDT(-0500)] <athena> i don't really recognize the error message though
[13:12:01 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon am i a sysop or some other level of admin on media wiki ?
[13:12:59 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> says i should see a 'delete' page link but not getting one
[13:14:01 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: will check, i made you admin
[13:14:08 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> maybe they're different roles
[13:32:10 CDT(-0500)] <cindyli> jamon: hi jamon, r u there?
[13:33:53 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> yes cindyli
[13:46:06 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon : any more info on admin role?
[13:48:36 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> odd heidi_, admin isn't working
[13:50:35 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> is it the same as sysop?
[13:57:28 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: you show up here: http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers/sysop
[13:57:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> okay
[13:57:52 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> do you see a delete link?
[13:58:21 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: for pages yes
[13:58:30 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: try alt+d keyboard shortcut ona page?
[13:59:18 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon no luck
[13:59:52 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: grr
[14:00:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> hey heidi_, quick question if you have a sec
[14:00:37 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> yep
[14:01:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm just setting up the Creative Commons license for the handbook
[14:01:15 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon what's a bureaucrat ?
[14:01:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The documentation describes bureaucrats
[14:01:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Pretty hilarious name
[14:01:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So, is there a page that represents the footer for the wiki?
[14:02:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Bureaucrats
[14:02:14 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark - i see footer "stuff" ... let me look
[14:02:56 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark "To add or remove items from the footer on your MediaWiki page, you must edit the skin."
[14:03:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> yack!
[14:03:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll toss the HTML in a pastebin
[14:03:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> If you get a sec, can you add it to our skin?
[14:03:28 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> there's a bunch of weird stuff: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Footer
[14:03:32 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: are you logged in as Heidi?
[14:03:34 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> yeah for sure
[14:03:37 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon: yes
[14:03:42 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> from everything that i see, you are admin
[14:04:07 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&amp;group=sysop
[14:04:22 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php/Special:ListGroupRights shows that you as an admin can delete pages
[14:04:27 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> which page are you trying to delete?
[14:04:28 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> bizarro
[14:04:43 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon ahhh
[14:04:47 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i see it
[14:04:51 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i can't delete some pages
[14:05:04 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> except main page
[14:05:09 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> you won't be able to delete any Special:foo page
[14:05:15 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ah
[14:05:21 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> like community events etc
[14:05:23 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> being special and all
[14:05:41 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> so no way to get rid of those
[14:05:43 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> ?
[14:05:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_: This page helps. It looks like I can edit the special MediaWiki:Copyright page to put it in. Thanks
[14:05:58 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colin : cool
[14:06:41 CDT(-0500)] <golam> justin_o, jameswy, jhung: want to chat about the reorderer demo page..weather we are going to need a new demo page since we have added new option to disable wrapping of elements
[14:06:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_: Can you make me awesome enough to have privileges to edit this page? http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php/MediaWiki:Copyright
[14:07:07 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colin: i hope so!
[14:07:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark>
[14:07:14 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: Special:UserRights
[14:07:18 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> checking if it's a localsettings thing
[14:07:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> learning curve all around
[14:08:02 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Hi golam: so are you thinking one of our demos should show the capability of turning wrapping on / off?
[14:08:47 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> golam, this is something that can be incorporated into the list reorderer demo which I'm working on right now.
[14:08:51 CDT(-0500)] <golam> this new options is for the integrator
[14:08:59 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark i think you just edit http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php/Floe_Accessibility_Wiki:Copyright ?
[14:09:28 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_: I don't have permission to edit that one, either
[14:09:29 CDT(-0500)] <golam> do you think we should create a two new pages one with wrapping enable and wrapping disable
[14:09:37 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Not fully clear which one I'm supposed to edit
[14:09:56 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark not sure i can change yr role cos i'm not a bureaucrat? :O
[14:10:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Doesn't sysop trump bureaucrat?
[14:10:31 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i think i'm realising i don't know what i'm doing
[14:10:36 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: make colinclark an admin too and it's all good
[14:10:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_: None of us do. We'll learn
[14:10:46 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> mediawiki, confusing
[14:10:50 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> indeed
[14:10:50 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon: how can one do that?
[14:11:01 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> golam: I don't think we need a separate demo to show off the option. A lot of our demos just show off core functionality and it's up to the user to discover / implement the options right for their context. What do others think?
[14:11:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jhung, golam: Hang on
[14:11:23 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: http://accessibility.floeproject.org/index.php?title=Special:UserRights&amp;user=Colinbdclark
[14:11:32 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Isn't this actually a configuration that users are going to need to control, jhung and golam?
[14:11:45 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> jamon: You do not have permission to do that, for the following reason:
[14:11:45 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> Your account does not have permission to assign user rights.
[14:11:54 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i wanna be a bureacrat !
[14:12:13 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi_: sure, try now
[14:12:16 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung, golam, colinclark: Right, via something like UI options.
[14:12:23 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> aw yeah
[14:12:30 CDT(-0500)] * colinclark thinks that's the first time I've ever heard someone yearn to be a bureaucrat
[14:12:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jameswy: Right. But since we don't have that feature in UI Options yet, we probably still need to give users a way to do it in the meantime, no?
[14:12:53 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> haha
[14:13:00 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colin i think yr able to edit now?
[14:13:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Some kind of little component control associated with the Reorderer? Something else? jameswy, justin_o, golam?
[14:13:13 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> not sure the diff between floe_wiki and mediawiki: urls
[14:13:13 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_: Lemme try it
[14:13:18 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> colinclark: runs in the dalton/david mcguinty family
[14:13:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[14:13:36 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> haha, their dad was an mpp too
[14:13:43 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> a dynasty
[14:14:03 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> heidi mcguinty
[14:14:32 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> colinclark, jhung, golam: Right, something like a checkbox to indicate whether the user wants wrapping on or off.
[14:14:42 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> heidi_/ jamon / anastasiac: Do any of you know, by chance, how to embed real HTML into a Media Wiki page?
[14:14:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jameswy: I'm thinking something like that, yes.
[14:15:27 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, no, haven't learned that in particular, though it looks like lots of the ways to do stuff is to actually use html
[14:15:43 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> And I imagine it extends beyond just the demo-presumably we'd want to actually ship the Reorderer with this control? Hard to know-it's a bit awkward, but we need to get a bit further along the UI Options curve before we can do it the nice way. jameswy / jhung / golam
[14:16:00 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, did you check this? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext#HTML_tags
[14:16:07 CDT(-0500)] * colinclark thinks threaded conversations in the channel are fun
[14:16:22 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Your Googling skillz beat mine
[14:16:30 CDT(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: i got so lost in this conversation, but golam helped me
[14:16:33 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I already had that page open
[14:16:43 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> golam, jameswy, colinclark: What is the use case for having the wrapping a user confugurable option?
[14:16:56 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, there's a link there to the 'main article'
[14:16:57 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> ps, colinclark, while your attention's still in the channel--when do you have time to chat about the Floe concept designs?
[14:17:19 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jameswy: totes. let's wrap up this convo and then chat
[14:17:39 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jhung: I can't remember if you were at the long chat we all had with Everett a month or so ago
[14:18:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> The short version is that screen reader users have commented that a lack of hard stops at the borders of the Reorderer cause them to be unclear about the overall structure of it. In other words, they don't understand it.
[14:19:35 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> colinclark: hmmm. that sounds to me that it'
[14:19:56 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> 's more an issue with how we present the structure of a reorderable component to an AT user.
[14:20:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jhung: I don't know if I'm fully clear on your idea here
[14:23:43 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> colinclark: it sounds like to me disabling wrapping / unwrapping is a way to help soneone using an AT orient themselves (i.e. by not wrapping, they won't get confused when it does). This to me sounds like a communication problem rather than a problem with wrapping.
[14:24:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It might well be, but I guess the question is, what does it mean for this to be a communication problem
[14:24:27 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Affordances in a user interface are communication
[14:24:46 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> I guess the point I'm getting at is if we provide good landmarks and feedback, then perhaps wrapping / unwrapping won't be as big an issue.
[14:24:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So wrapping provides an incredible efficiency for many keyboard-only users
[14:25:06 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but it throws out spatial affordances for screen reader users
[14:25:09 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> However, I do like being able to disable wrapping (this is something we've wanted in Decapod .
[14:25:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Part of my argument here is that the solution to a great screen reader user experience isn't always just explaining otherwise opaque stuff to them with words
[14:26:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Just like any other UI that is filled with text and instructions is a poor one
[14:26:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> You want to explain through interaction
[14:26:18 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> That's a pretty high standard, so we'll have to see what we can do with it
[14:26:31 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> But hard wrapping works against itself in different contexts, which is pretty interesting
[14:26:51 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I have no doubt that better labels about the index and order of elements will go a long way
[14:27:04 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung, colinclark: I think, in the end, this is something for the integrator to decide, but a decision that the user is given the option of overriding via user preferences. Wrapping and hard stops are both useful in different contexts.
[14:27:17 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Yes. There are even different modes of wrapping (wrapping back on the same line, vs wrapping to the next line, or disabling wrapping all together). How this is communicated as an option to a user will be interesting.
[14:27:17 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> well said
[14:29:55 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> colinclark, jameswy, golam: we we're leaving out a wrapping demo until later?
[14:31:11 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jhung: I don't know how we can test this feature if we don't expose it to users
[14:31:29 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Either through a demo, or perhaps better, a control associated with the Reorderer that can be toggled
[14:31:48 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> jhung: I can't think of any other ways to do user testing with this. Am I missing anything?
[14:32:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac / heidi_: From reading the documentation it looks like Media Wiki is pretty strict about raw HTML, requiring you to convert it to wiki syntax in many cases
[14:33:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> several minutes of my life I'll never reclaim
[14:33:12 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> haha
[14:33:32 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> if it's a footer thing i can put it in the skin
[14:33:48 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark ^
[14:34:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess it would be nice to update this kind of thing without having to edit the skin
[14:34:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> let me take a further look at it when i get a chance
[14:34:28 CDT(-0500)] <golam> jhung: can we have a configuration page where the user set option for wrapping enable/disable and when it's set then the user don't have expose to it in the reorderer page
[14:34:30 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> k
[14:34:47 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> colinclark : btw, you can switch to the floe skin in "my preferences"
[14:34:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> i saw that
[14:34:55 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> coming along
[14:35:05 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> yeah figuring out nav...
[14:35:37 CDT(-0500)] <heidi_> i think it's the TOC i want in the left nav, not all that other weird stuff
[14:41:12 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> golam, yes. Something like that will work. however, I don't have any ideas what such a demo would look like at the moment.
[16:06:02 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, regarding the a11y primer writing: I've got drafts up on the wiki for the first two techniques. I'll probably revisit them later, but I'm ready to move on to more. If you've already started on any of the other techniques, let me know which ones, so that I avoid duplicating your efforts.
[16:15:01 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: pick anything you like
[16:15:21 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> all right, colinclark, I'll just continue working my way down the list