fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-11-04

[08:38:02 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: is JenC going to be in today?
[08:38:15 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: Nope
[08:38:36 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: k, thanks.
[08:50:21 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> justin_o: thanks for adding the Pager demo Jira to the bug parade. I forgot.
[08:52:32 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Everyone, jameswy, jessm: Seeking thoughts on a draft pager demo design. http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11286/Pager.png
[08:53:39 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jhung: no problem about the pager jira.
[08:53:59 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jhung: harriswong and I had some questions about the list reorderer demo
[08:54:24 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> justin_o, harriswong: okay.
[08:56:56 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: regarding to http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11273/list-reorderer.png, we noticed the last image has no border-right on the list items, was that meant to be that way or?
[08:58:33 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harrriswong, justin_o: Ah. That's an old copy of the image. Let me attach the proper one.
[08:59:02 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: also, for the 2nd image, the box that's being dragged (avatar) has no text on it, though it said on the right that text should be in #d1d3d4, we were just curious if the text was missing, or it was meant to be invisible. If it was meant to be invisible, what is that text color for then?
[08:59:33 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: thanks!
[09:02:29 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong, yes that's not clear. That's actually the style for the items in the list. Let me update the file and you can take another look.
[09:03:30 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: thanks~
[09:07:22 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jhung: also are these supposed to only be the demo styles or the component's default styles?
[09:08:45 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> justin_o: demo specific at the moment. I think there's a bigger issue of making all our components share a common default scheme for styling.
[09:09:02 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: Updated the file - http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11287/list-reorderer.png
[09:09:33 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jhung: thanks
[09:20:39 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: thanks
[09:20:41 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> jhung: for pager you can also take a look at this demo; http://build.fluidproject.org/infusion/integration-demos/sakai/html/pager-site-setting.html
[09:21:24 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> it is more advanced, for example hover over the page links
[09:21:41 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: re: pager wireframe – the paging part (prev, next, page links) seems rather separate from everything else, especially in the top-half.
[09:21:55 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> there is a bug on that page though, so you will have to change the number of items per page before it will work
[09:24:37 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: yes, we can bring it in closer, but I think pager will show all pages from 1 to 13 if in Continuous mode.
[09:25:17 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: What if there are 100+ pages?
[09:25:31 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> So space is given to reduce that, but doesn'[t exactly prevent it.
[09:25:32 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> Justin_o: should i work on the layout reorderer now?
[09:26:04 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: I think it will wrap inside the container.
[09:27:25 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: I need to experiment a bit more, but I suppose we can go with the gapped scheme of navigation and not worry about it. That way I can bring in the page navigation closer and not worry about overlap or wrapping.
[09:28:36 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> harriswong: is the list reorderer all done now
[09:28:47 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> Justin_o: yep
[09:29:16 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: also, I'm not sure what's meant by continuous and gapped--continuous is just one gap, and gapped is two gaps?
[09:29:59 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: continuous is no gaps. All pages shown. No gaps (the behaviour I show in the wireframe I'm not even sure is possible).
[09:30:07 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: gapped has 2 gaps.
[09:30:45 CDT(-0500)] * jhung looking at pager documentation again
[09:32:39 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: In your wireframe, there's a gap but it's set to continuous... I'm a bit confused?
[09:33:41 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: that's what i'm talking about. What I have in the wireframe (the single gap) may not be possible with Pager in continuous mode.
[09:34:03 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: Ahh, I understand now. Gotcha.
[09:35:00 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jameswy: I think the gapped navigation makes more sense anyway. However, it'd be nice to have an option to specify a single or double gap.
[09:35:33 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Other than the layout of the page links and prev/next, how does the rest of it look?
[10:09:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> mlam: Given the stupid bug you found in the branch I'm going to commit my working copy now
[10:09:44 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's all improvements, I just don't have the unit tests fully working yet
[10:09:50 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> thanks colin!
[10:10:24 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> i'm spending some time commenting the public functions in the inline edit
[10:10:43 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> once i send the patch off to Justin_o, i'll get back to the uploader
[10:12:07 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> ok, great
[10:17:32 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> colinclark: you're back and in office all of next week?
[10:17:52 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> mlam: It's all committed now
[10:17:54 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Big commit
[10:17:57 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> but hopefully a good one
[10:18:03 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok, cool...updating now
[10:18:05 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Yep, I'm back all next week
[10:20:05 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> were you going to commit the demo html file to include the IoC file?
[10:20:26 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Demo HTML file?
[10:20:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Is it not just the Uploader's template?
[10:20:55 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> no, it's also in the demo/html/uploader.html file
[10:22:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> hmm
[10:22:16 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm not sure I even knew that file existed
[10:22:20 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> What is it?
[10:23:03 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> shoot
[10:23:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> it's a freaking cut and pasted version of the Uploader's template
[10:23:14 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ohhhh
[10:23:35 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> this just sucks
[10:23:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> You know what?
[10:23:46 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> let's leave it and file a bug about the evils of cut and paste
[10:24:03 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ohhh.. i see there's an uploader.html file in the components directory as well
[10:24:05 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok, cool
[10:24:09 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> seems like we need to fix the duplication, rather than fix every bug twice
[10:24:09 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i thought search and replace was the new evil
[10:24:30 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: It is
[10:24:49 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> But they are so closely related
[10:25:02 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> As you see, I'm refusing to submit to the evils of search and replace
[10:25:23 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> which is the only way I could cope with this problem of having two copies of the EXACT SAME MARKUP
[10:25:38 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> Whereas, by avoiding search and replace, I'm feeling the pain
[10:25:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> so much that I will delete the cut and pasted markup
[10:26:00 CDT(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: that makes sense
[10:26:45 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> mlam: I think I may have a legitimate bug in the demo engine right now
[10:26:56 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> If you run the tests, you'll notice that they now do nothing
[10:27:04 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> they don't even report a failure
[10:27:24 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> as Justin_o pointed out last night, if an event never fires, the test runner will just hang forever, waiting for start() to be called
[10:27:36 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> So it looks to me like it's not firing afterUploadComplete at all
[10:27:59 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> It's a drag, but great that we've got something that shows the issue
[10:28:08 CDT(-0500)] <colinclark> though debugging asynchronous code is always a bit complex
[10:29:21 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> some of them are running for me
[10:49:33 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Since my mic wasn't working during standup, here is my report:
[10:49:39 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Working on pager design. Uploaded draft design to http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3822. Working on a new iteration now based on discussion with Jameswy.
[10:49:52 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Continued work on enumerating component features. Seems like I can't browse for files in the Uploader?
[10:49:58 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Did some testing of inline edit demo.
[10:50:03 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> That's all.
[10:56:53 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> jhung: how did the inline edit demo work for you?
[10:57:36 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> it worked well. I didn't go through with a screen reader, but used IE8 and FF3.6 in Win7. The positioning of the context message works well now in IE8
[10:59:50 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> ok, cool
[11:00:58 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: i have some questions regarding to the layout reorderer demo, for http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/attachment/11272/Layout-reorderer.png, does the 25% 50% 25% layout including padding for the div boxes? if so, what would be the ideal padding/margin for them?
[11:02:27 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> That excludes padding. Give it a 1em to 1.5 em between columns. We may have to play with it a little to make sure it looks okay.
[11:02:41 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong^
[11:03:49 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung; ok!
[12:33:52 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: can i get the lock image from the layout-reorderer, thanks.
[12:46:41 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: and also the draggable-icon please. The ones at the top right of the boxes. thanks!
[12:48:29 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: will do. jameswy: what resolution did you use for the inline edit icons, so I can make them the same size.
[12:48:58 CDT(-0500)] <jameswy> jhung: check with mlam, but I think they were 16x16
[12:49:26 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> 16x16
[12:49:35 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> thanks!
[12:52:11 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: I just realized that the list reorderer wireframe does not have an invalid drop interaction. I'll get that to you too.
[12:52:58 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: thanks. btw, for the "default movable", the dragbar height refers to the top blueish bar which the mouse can click on to drag, right?
[12:53:49 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: just want to confirm.. is that the top border, or is that within the border, which means another div bar within the movable div?
[12:55:09 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: yes that is correct. The toolbar will be a div inside the movable container
[12:55:33 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: ok thanks
[12:57:11 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: the dragbar height should be probably 20px assuming the icons are 16x16.
[13:00:42 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhun: ok, thanks!
[13:01:24 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung*^
[13:04:56 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: I've attached the icons to the jira: http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3754
[13:13:49 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: got'em thanks
[13:14:14 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, do you have a minute to chat about the keyboard-a11y demo markup?
[13:15:06 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: sure
[13:16:05 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled and I were working on the actual code yesterday, and we were wondering about the markup for the 5-star widget thing
[13:16:26 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it doesn't seem that a list is quite the right semantic markup for the ranking
[13:16:47 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I'm not quite sure what would be, but we'd like to try to find something that is as semantically appropriate as possible
[13:17:09 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it seems most like a slider to me - but then, what's the right mark-up for a slider?
[13:17:19 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled suggested possibly radio buttons?
[13:17:49 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> any thoughts, jhung?
[13:22:01 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> Anastasiac: Yes, I had thought the same thing too. It behaves very much like a slider, a set of radio buttons, or even a drop-down selection.
[13:22:46 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> re drop-down: that was my first thought, but then I realized that in this case, the possible values have a relative relationship to each other - that's what made me think slider
[13:22:50 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> jhung: any reason you chose to implement the ranking using the css technique?
[13:23:02 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> fyi, jhung, I just now committed some changed to that mark-up and JS
[13:23:14 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> nothing really for the stars, but just in case you want to update
[13:24:10 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled: the decision was based mostly on the fact I didn't think the use of a <form> was appropriate, and the semantics of a list were okay.
[13:25:10 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> to me it doesn't feel like a list
[13:25:21 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: I think a slider would be most appropriate because the ranks are on a continuum from 1 to 5. Radios are discrete.
[13:26:00 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> did you manage to test the strategy in all our supported browsers? the strategy feels to me like one that might not work the same in all browsers
[13:26:06 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> well, our particular continuum is, actually, discrete: you can't pick 3.5 stars
[13:26:31 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled: visually, it doesn't feel like a list, but the relationships needed to be presented to the user. A list was good because it has an implied relationship and hierarchy.
[13:27:28 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: but that isn't to say we shouldn't allow for 3.5 stars, right?
[13:28:05 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> well, I guess what I mean is that that 'data' we are presenting doesn't feel like a list - regardless of how we present it
[13:28:49 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> or else it's an ordered list with no content
[13:28:55 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> true.
[13:31:02 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled, anastasiac: I'm leaning towards a slider because it's more flexible if we decide to change the allowed values, and conveys a relationship between the numbers being selected. Unless there's something about using radio buttons I'm not considering?
[13:33:05 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> so, there's no reason to get rid of the stars - I was just suggesting that we implement differently
[13:33:19 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> I don't think our concern about semantic markup should drive your design
[13:33:31 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> my question would be: what mark-up is appropriate for this?
[13:34:21 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled: I wasn't thinking of getting rid of the stars.
[13:34:38 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled: thinking the same thing - how should it be marked up.
[13:34:39 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> oh good
[13:35:06 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, michelled: jessm just emailed about this - seems we can't use it without a license
[13:36:11 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> anastasiac: jhung: michelled: my understanding is that we can't use it as is – we need to think about our products getting used by our users – and if they can't easily use it, then we shouldn't put it out there
[13:36:22 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> where "easily" means with clear licensing
[13:38:28 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: this is a bit grey then. If there's no license, and the author has clearly indicated it's free and educational. Then how is it different from a reference? Just to illustrate the point (not that I'm arguing we should , we don't have to acknowledge Crockford each time we do something he's shown us, right?
[13:39:56 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> we need to be clear about products we're putting out there for others
[13:40:32 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> learning something from Crockford versus using code – smell different to me, but we could probably all use a little primer/reminder about copyright and licensing
[13:41:45 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jessm, a primer about licensing would be great!
[13:41:57 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> i agree!
[13:42:03 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, are you there?
[13:42:04 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> when colin is back he'll organize
[13:43:49 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> jessm: yes, they are different. But I wonder if the author has the intent to make it free, and clearly stated so, is that sufficient for anyone to use it as they wish? I guess I'll find out during the primer.
[13:44:00 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, I think it shouldn't be too hard to re-implement the 5-star ranking without using that code: 5 images, each a single star; three possible colours of star, and JS that figures out what the chosen/hovered star is and changed the images accordingly
[13:44:35 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: do some digging if you feel it – I'm not sure it's enough. creative commons will probably be really clear about whether or not it is
[13:44:46 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: so would we keep it as a list but put aria roles on it?
[13:45:20 CDT(-0500)] <jessm> jhung: i'm going to leave it – and i'm going offline for the afternoon – i'll see y'all tomorrow
[13:45:41 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, no, not a list: just images in a div, styled to be horizontal
[13:45:49 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jessm, thanks for your input!
[13:46:42 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: can you summarize what you're thinking the markup will look like?
[13:47:40 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: i notice the first image says hover: #21409a; but the 2nd image of mouse interaction shows the hover as grey, should i go with the 21409a (blue)?
[13:49:09 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung: <div><img/><img/><img/><img/><img/></div>
[13:49:36 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled could also comment, she's been chatting with me (literally) about this too
[13:49:44 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: sorry. I'm getting really sloppy (few things going on at once, and lack of sleep . Let be go over all the styles and get those for you. For now, try not to worry about them until I get you an update.
[13:51:26 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: you mean more like <div> <a><img/></a> etc. </div>?
[13:51:30 CDT(-0500)] <michelled> jhung, anastasiac: I think we'll have to try it out to see exactly what the markup looks like. either what anastasiac put up there or with spans around the images if we need them for styling
[13:51:49 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: okay! thakns!
[13:51:55 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, I don't think the links are necessary. The keyboard accessibility plugin provides mouse access as well
[13:53:40 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: but it should do something if JS is disabled, right? I figure it'll be like old school web 1.0 days when you click, wait for the server to respond, then for the UI to refresh.
[13:54:46 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung,given that this is a demo of something that is JavaScript, we don't really need to worry too much about it degrading. Our components need to degrade gracefully, but if JS is disabled, this demo is meaningless anyway
[13:56:11 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, are you thinking that by including links, it better mimics a real world environment (even though the links don't actually do anything)?
[13:58:05 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: I was thinking primarily of degradation and providing an example.
[13:59:04 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, I think unless our example actually does degrade gracefully - i.e. actually still does something - then there's no real benefit to including those links, and they just complicate the demo
[14:00:11 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: the links will actually make the 5-star widget do something. Otherwise they will be a div of images, right?
[14:01:15 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> jhung, we don't need links: the keyboard a11y plugin will attach the necessary functionality. Have a look at what we've implemented for the thumbnails. It works without links, both using the keyboard and the mouse
[14:02:05 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> anastasiac: LOL I think we're talking two different things. lol
[14:02:14 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> want to skype briefly?
[14:02:20 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> michelled too?
[14:02:24 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> oh, that's not good. sure, let's skype
[14:02:35 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> I think she has another meeting?
[14:03:03 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> k. then let's chat.
[14:52:07 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: I've updated the images. The list reorderer now has the "invalid" mouse drop case. Fixed the wrong colour hover in the layout reorderer (was grey, should have been blue). Also uploaded an information icon.
[14:56:04 CDT(-0500)] <harriswong> jhung: thanks! for the first image, when the image is being dragged, it got greyed out, can i assume that's #000 with 50% opacity?
[14:57:02 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> harriswong: correct.
[14:58:42 CDT(-0500)] <jhung> I got to run. Will be back tomorrow.
[15:12:22 CDT(-0500)] <heidi> jamon: apple fritter good
[15:12:46 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> anastasiac: I've posted a patch on JIRA (FLUID-3821) to coment all the public functions of the inline edit. Any chance you could take a quick look through to see if everything's ok?
[15:13:03 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> patch is called "comments2.txt"
[15:13:14 CDT(-0500)] <jamon> heidi:
[15:13:20 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam, thanks! I'll have a look
[15:13:50 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> thank you!
[15:14:02 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> i'll update the API again with the new variable names
[15:25:54 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> mlam: "really"? the name of a parameter is actually "really"??
[15:26:04 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> yah, i know
[15:26:24 CDT(-0500)] <mlam> that's been there for a while now, and i'm still not sure how to rename that variable.
[15:26:42 CDT(-0500)] <anastasiac> it's fine, I think, just cute