fluid-work IRC Logs-2008-07-24

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[09:39:57 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> good morning, Jacob2
[09:40:23 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> how are you this morning?
[09:40:52 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Jacob2, can you hear me?
[09:41:17 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> (for other people listening in, we're testing Pidgin's notification capabilities
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[09:55:58 EDT(-0400)] <jhung_ca> anastasiac, testing a new irc client.
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[10:02:07 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> hi jhung_ca, I see you
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[10:47:41 EDT(-0400)] <theclown> ruiles of thumb: http://egonitron.com/2008/05/01/design-coding-rap/
[10:47:48 EDT(-0400)] <theclown> s/ruiles/rules
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[11:03:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> colinclark: More righteous pictures of the Fluidic Bed
[11:03:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8129850@N02/2696512753/sizes/l/
[11:04:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: That is truly the Fluidic Bed!
[11:05:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This is actually one of the awesomest pictures I've ever seend.
[11:05:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Seen.
[11:05:13 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Eli could make a great basketball player
[11:05:25 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I mean, gosh, he must be, like 8 feet tall
[11:05:45 EDT(-0400)] <jhung_ca> haha
[11:05:53 EDT(-0400)] <jhung_ca> Nice photo. They look very productive.
[11:06:16 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> We were pretty productive that day
[11:06:34 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Basically between the 3 of us got the inline-edit table self-rendering self-committing demo working...
[11:07:49 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Any chance yet of getting the clock fixed on the JIRA machine?
[11:07:57 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> It is quite an annoyance having my inbox so deranged
[11:09:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Yes, I find it annoying, too. I will ping our system administrator.
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[13:24:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o was asking me about what version of Firebug I am running.
[13:24:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This is related to http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-872
[13:24:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Arrow key selection seems to be flaky...
[13:24:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And strangely enough, inconsistent even across the same version of browser.
[13:25:02 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> and we think that Firebug may be related?
[13:25:20 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> sorry, wrong window
[13:25:29 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> I'm not using Firebug and I can't tab into any of the uploader components
[13:25:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: I'm running Firebug 1.2.0b3
[13:26:02 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> okay... i'll brb.. I'm going to check it with the other computers..
[13:26:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Another bug I've noticed...
[13:26:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The Browse Files/Add More button isn't keyboard activatable.
[13:26:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Weird.
[13:26:48 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> isn't that odd!
[13:26:59 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I looked at for about a half hour yesterday
[13:27:03 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> can't figure it out
[13:27:09 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> totally puzzled
[13:27:25 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> only the inline version, I believe
[13:27:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Just for fun, I disabled Firebug and still don't seem to be able to get focus on the file queue.
[13:27:54 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> np for me
[13:28:07 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I can get the file queue to focus
[13:28:17 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> however the focus is very hard to see
[13:28:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: I think focus styling needs some work across the board.
[13:28:46 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> should the first row be focused when the file queue gets focus?
[13:28:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Yes. That's a bug.
[13:28:56 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: yes
[13:29:01 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> cool
[13:29:08 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> the versions in use on the macs here are 1.10b12, 1.2.0b6...
[13:29:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: And does the selection stuff work on those machines?
[13:29:29 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i'll try to turn it off on one of them here to see if that has an effect. if not.. i'll have to keep thinking
[13:29:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is this just a problem on my machine?!?
[13:29:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark>
[13:29:38 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: the styling I used was purposefully in-your-face so I could test
[13:29:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Understandable.
[13:31:10 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> it works on the octacore (some buttons work on inline some on pop-up version) and works a little differntly on the imac.. sorry that didn't make much sense
[13:31:13 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> hmm, I may have broken the keyboard based Remove functionality
[13:31:32 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> sorry, my confusion
[13:31:40 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> yes.. that is one of the wierd things.. that works on one version of uploader on one of the machines in ff3
[13:31:59 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> works fine, except that once you do it once, you lose the focus
[13:32:13 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> seems that it should focus on the next line
[13:32:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Yes, I saw that on the octacore. Another bug.
[13:33:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Can you do me a favour? Would you mind filing these two selection focus bugs and marking them as blockers?
[13:33:10 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> yipes! once you delete one line you can't focus the queue again!
[13:33:19 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> assigned to Antranig?
[13:33:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: For now, yes.
[13:33:39 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> on it
[13:33:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> A styling expert may be needed.
[13:33:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Thanks, dude.
[13:33:47 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: on it
[13:34:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Have you seen the fluidic bed picture yet?
[13:34:37 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: is there a way in Colloquy to enter a persons name via a shortcut? I'm tired of typing colinclark
[13:34:47 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: yes... I have mutant feet
[13:35:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: I don't know.
[13:35:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Maybe anastasiac knows?
[13:35:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> She's an expert at keyboard shortcuts.
[13:35:37 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: we all need short handles, like cc, eli, ant, ana, etc
[13:36:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Oooh!
[13:36:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Use the tab key.
[13:36:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I type e, then hit tab, and it auto-completes.
[13:36:30 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: just found that! yippe!
[13:36:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: I will be even faster now.
[13:36:50 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I am a happy IRC jockey now
[13:37:00 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I will rule the world!
[13:37:34 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: it even colinclark works colinclark anywhere in the colinclark text colinclark
[13:38:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> now we can all ping me incessantly in irc!
[13:38:43 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> hmm.. i tried disabling firebug in one and adding it to mine, but no difference.. must be something else.. but what??
[13:39:05 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ecochran and colinclark, I don't know of any keyboard shortcuts for that.
[13:39:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: tab rules!
[13:39:21 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac reads now that she's already responded
[13:39:30 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac feels sheepish
[13:39:54 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark claims anastasiac's Master of Shortcuts title.
[13:40:03 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac is glad to be rid of it
[13:40:13 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac wants to keep the VI goddess title
[13:40:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[13:40:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> What a thing to be godess of
[13:40:35 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark wants an IDE with no shortcuts for cut and paste.
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[13:40:48 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> There is also "Anoia", the goddess of things which get stuck in drawers preventing them from being shut properly...
[13:40:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[13:41:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Now I know who to blame for my kitchen drawer.
[13:41:25 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Do I understand some bugs have been assigned to me?
[13:41:53 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: I have yet to write them up
[13:42:01 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: am doing so now
[13:42:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran was distracted by the tab key.
[13:42:47 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: damn straight
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[13:44:25 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> this, by the way, is why people don't like IRC, too damn nerdy!
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[13:44:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: By "nerdy," you mean "awesome," right?
[13:45:26 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: oh yes, sorry, autocomplete just automatically switched awesome to nerdy
[13:45:34 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark laughs.
[13:48:17 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon and colinclark: I can no longer reproduce the bug where if I delete a row I can no longer focus the file queue... grumph!
[13:48:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Weird.
[13:48:53 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: and colinclark: got it again
[13:49:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This grumph thing appears to be analogous to glarg.
[13:49:12 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I don't seem to have to use a bullet character
[13:49:22 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: Bosmon: if you use the mouse at all, it doesn't seem to happen
[13:49:25 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> go figger
[13:49:29 EDT(-0400)] * Bosmon is bullet-free
[13:49:52 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Despite Hattie having threatened today to have all developers lined up against a wall and shot...
[13:49:57 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> yes, grumph is glarg-ish
[13:50:22 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> but there are subtle differences that are lost in translation
[13:51:07 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> grumph appears a more crusty expression of grumpy astonishment
[13:51:30 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Whereas glarg is perhaps a more resigned expression of simple dismay
[13:51:43 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: I think you hit it!
[13:53:50 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> ecochran: can you only use the delete key to remove files
[13:54:09 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> from the uploader
[13:54:23 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> using the keyboard
[13:54:41 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Justin_o: yep
[13:54:47 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> are there other keys that should work?
[13:55:26 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i thought he x was a button, so i though you could use the enter key
[13:55:43 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> yes, but the x is not focusable anymore
[13:55:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: At the moment, the x button isn't focussable with the keyboard.
[13:55:55 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> correct
[13:55:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There's more thinking that ultimately needs to be done with this interaction.
[13:56:03 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> okay... got it
[13:56:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But the goal was to align things more closely with a familiar file list view.
[13:56:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Delete/Apple-Delete to remove files.
[13:56:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Unfortunately the Apple key is evil in browsers.
[13:56:35 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> so the other two macs are the same then.. i didn't realize anastasiac was pushing delete.. but mine is differnt.. still can't tab to any compontents
[13:56:36 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I just saw your inability to focus the file queue while trying to regress this odd delete but
[13:56:58 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> intermittant
[13:57:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: It's strange and subtle. I'm so confused.
[13:57:05 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon>
[13:57:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Are you finding any stable reproduce-ability?
[13:57:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or put less dorkily, have you find any way to reproduce the problem consistently?
[13:57:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> found
[13:58:03 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark should stop typing.
[13:58:15 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> colinclark: i seem to be able to reproduce the same behaviour on the octacore and imac.. and mine is always the same but differnt from the other two
[13:58:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Wow.
[13:58:58 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i can get into the file list.. i tab to the 'add more' button.. press up.. and you are into the file queue.
[13:59:06 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I think that it's related to my bug
[13:59:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It looks like knocking off these bugs should be our priority as a group for the next little while.
[13:59:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Remind me of "your bug" again.
[13:59:58 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: my bug is, if you delete a file from the file queue with the keyboard, you can no longer focus the file queue
[14:00:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Aha, yes.
[14:00:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Thanks.
[14:00:06 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> except that it too is itermittend
[14:00:13 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> itermittant
[14:00:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Have you filed a JIRA for that one as well?
[14:00:38 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I was writing it up when I found a skad of related issues that distracted
[14:00:39 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> me
[14:00:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'll try to summarize the various bugs we've talked about, just so we're all on the same page...
[14:00:49 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:01:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 1. In some cases, the file queue is not focussable. This means that it is impossible to select any of the file rows within it using the arrow keys.
[14:01:30 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> ecochran: I've only seen that focus goes away..but if you tab and use the up arrow.. you can get back it
[14:01:34 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> in
[14:01:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 2. When the file queue is focussed, the first row in the cue should be selected. The style does not seem to appear until you press the arrow keys.
[14:02:01 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I suppose that "deleting" the DOM node that is focused might cause an undefined effect
[14:02:06 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Does anyone have any experience with that?
[14:02:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 3. When you delete an item from the cue, the next row below it should be selected.
[14:02:09 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Justin_o: intermittent but I've seen it where you can't get the focus back
[14:02:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> 4. Eli is seeing a bug where, when you delete an item from the queue, the whole cue becomes un-focussable.
[14:02:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:02:28 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> hmm.. i'll keep playing..
[14:02:39 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> 1, 3 and 4 sound like they may have a common cause
[14:02:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Do those four points cover the bugs we're seeing, everyone?
[14:02:40 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i still have to figure out why my machine can't focus anything
[14:03:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran, Justin_o, Bosmon: Am I missing any issues?
[14:03:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I think if you "put the focus where the sun doesn't shine", the browser may legitimately complain....
[14:03:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[14:03:33 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: that's it
[14:03:48 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> can't tab their either
[14:03:59 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But how to fix this issue is quite interesting...
[14:04:06 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> At least, from the code structural point of view...
[14:04:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> It implies that one should never seek to manually destroy a node which is managed by a "selectable"....
[14:04:40 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: here is another, if you focus any item in the Uploader and hit the arrow key, it will focus a row in the queue
[14:04:59 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ecochran: Isn't that what is required?
[14:05:11 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> that's how i've been getting there
[14:05:28 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: it should only focus a row if the file queue is focus'd, at least that it my understanding
[14:05:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> oh
[14:05:57 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok...
[14:06:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But how could those two be harmonised?
[14:06:18 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: otherwise if you had a widget with two lists, how would you know which list you are acting on?
[14:06:21 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I guess you mean, "it should only focus a row if the focus is already anywhere inside the file queue"?
[14:06:29 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: yes
[14:06:33 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:06:36 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: much clearer
[14:06:41 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I think we can manage that...
[14:06:51 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> which browser/version/OS is everyone using?
[14:07:01 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But this whole "deleting the focused node" business is quite problematic
[14:07:06 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Has anyone ever tried to do that before?
[14:07:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just to clarify, here's the correct behaviour for the file queue:
[14:07:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The queue itself-the container for each of the file rows-should be Tab focussable.
[14:08:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> When you tab to the queue for the first time, the first file row should be automatically focussed.
[14:08:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Tab and Shift-Tab allow you to leave the queue altogether, focussing the next or previous item in the tab order.
[14:08:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The arrow keys should only have an effect within the file queue itself.
[14:09:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: As for deleting the focussed item, I've never tried it. It seems to me that the operation should be like this:
[14:09:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Before removing the row, focus the next one. Then delete the row.
[14:10:12 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Right
[14:10:15 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: why first move the focus?
[14:10:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But this implies a "particular formality" for anyone who ever wants to delete something
[14:10:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: So you can safely delete the node without scaring the browser.
[14:10:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Which is not something we have ever operated before...
[14:10:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Browsers seem to do very wild things with focus and blur.
[14:10:52 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: if the user is watching, I think that this will be confusing
[14:11:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: This would be done within a single operation...
[14:11:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:11:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Browsers tend not to honour DOM updates until the thread is released
[14:11:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Exactly.
[14:11:48 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Although in odd situations it seems some of them can be provoked
[14:11:55 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I think that you'll get a brief flash when the next item focuses
[14:11:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I mean, we may be fine to just delete a row that is currently focussed.
[14:12:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The thing is still that we're going to need to figure out what row is next and make sure it explicitly gets focus.
[14:12:21 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: yep
[14:12:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> My guess about the cause of this problem is that it is not ok to do this...
[14:12:42 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: may I change the subject?
[14:12:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think the lesson is that we can't expect the browser to magically just focus the next child node if we summarily kill the currently focussed one. So we have to do it ourselves.
[14:12:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Sure.
[14:12:56 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Certainly if this is our desired behaviour
[14:12:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We are multithreaded.
[14:13:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Our desired behaviour should be that the next element gets focussed when a row is deleted.
[14:13:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:13:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The plugin will take care of wrapping around, etc.
[14:13:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> so selectNext() is your friend.
[14:13:31 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Then we will certainly need to do that ourselves
[14:13:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark>
[14:13:44 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: seems that the designers should have a separate design channel on IRC... do you concur?
[14:13:45 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But yes, this should really be a surfaced "top-level" operation within the plugin itself
[14:13:58 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Especially if there is anything remotely sensitive that we turn up wrt. the ordering of the operations
[14:14:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> selectable.that().deleteSelection();
[14:14:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: I don't entirely concur, no. I think that we all need a place to take smaller group conversations to keep noise down on the channel.
[14:14:48 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> noise?
[14:15:25 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I worry that most of the talk on this channel with just make the designers tune out!
[14:15:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: In other words, I don't think a fluid-design channel makes much sense, but I do think it is good practice to create a short-term channel for a conversation with smaller groups.
[14:15:47 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: how do you do that?
[14:16:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In Colloquy, just do File > Join Chat Room... and specify a new name.
[14:16:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> fluid-focusbugs, for example.
[14:16:44 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: another perspective... I hardly read sakai-dev because of all the things that I don't or can't relate to
[14:17:06 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> and it's so noisy that I can't even find the relevant stuff
[14:17:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: See, the thing is, the designers aren't here at the moment. So of course the conversation is going to be busy with the sorts of things we're concerned with.
[14:17:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: As more diverse interests join the channel, we get a big benefit... the ability to strike up a public conversation about a particular topic.
[14:18:00 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: and then they join and the channel won't but useful for anyone, it's hard enough to follow two conversations on the channel
[14:18:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's up to us, in a larger channel, to recognize when to move a conversation into a smaller group.
[14:18:33 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> It's hard enough to figure out how to join one IRC channel reliably
[14:18:44 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: well, I'm still new (and a little frustrated by IRC) so I don't really know
[14:19:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: My whole point is that the channel's content will change based on who is here. And we'll all have to be respectful of the noise level.
[14:19:15 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> my productivity has plummeted using IRC with just this one channel
[14:19:41 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: can you create a channel on the fly?
[14:19:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: As far as I'm concerned, the work of coordinating these bug fixes is highly productive.
[14:19:48 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ecochran, the bullet character is accomplished by typeing "/me ..."
[14:20:08 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> and invite people to it?
[14:20:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: watch.
[14:20:32 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I'm watching
[14:20:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran, Bosmon, Justin_o: Would you care to join me in fluid-focusbugs to talk about the various bugs we're seeing in the uploader?
[14:21:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I've created the channel. Just use File > Join Chat Room to join me.
[14:21:07 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> OK
[14:22:04 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: how do I find the room? Do I have to type in the whole thing?
[14:22:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I don't this this idea of a separate channel is a good one at all
[14:22:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Yep, just type in the channel name. Or cut and paste.
[14:22:24 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> just type "/join fluid-focusbug"
[14:22:36 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> This channel has just become useful, as a result of a coordinated discussion in it
[14:22:39 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> sorry, "/join #fluid-focusbug"
[14:22:43 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Also, note that any new channels we make will not be logged
[14:22:54 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Which is also a core value of this one, that was quite some effort to set up
[14:23:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: The channel is becoming really useful, and I really miss the presence of the other designers here.
[14:23:17 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> People other than just the 4 of us are very likely to want to be able to "drop in" on this bug discussion retrospectively
[14:23:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's going to take some getting used to, and some strategies for handling noise.
[14:23:55 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: keyboard shortcuts, typing... this is not a user friendly tool
[14:23:56 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I don't see anyone in the new channel?
[14:24:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Look, we're part of an open source project. Sometimes the tools take a bit of getting used to, but we really need to embrace communications media that will help us collaborate.
[14:24:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The past several days on the channel have been immensely useful.
[14:25:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's easy to hear what people are up to, and to coordinate issues like these Uploader fixes.
[14:25:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It takes some practice to adjust, I agree.
[14:25:50 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: I am finding it helpful (and distracting) but it does take a lot of practice
[14:26:24 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: and I couldn't find useful documentation when I googled, but then I didn't try very hard, because I've got work to do!!!
[14:26:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Part of the work you need to do is collaborating on these bugs.
[14:27:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There are three people with a stake in these bugs: yourself, Justin_o, and Bosmon.
[14:27:07 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: no doubt
[14:27:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The channel is the appropriate place to do this work.
[14:27:23 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, it should be "/join #fluid-focusbugs" with an s
[14:27:46 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> ok, thanks
[14:27:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: I've been talking with jhung_ca about the possibility of building some tutorials and techniques for learning about IRC.
[14:28:05 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Yes, IRC can be pretty irritating in many ways
[14:28:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I would love an improved solution...
[14:28:14 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But I don't really know of any
[14:28:17 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> but back to my original point, it seems easier to parse a room that is specific to a given subject
[14:29:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: The particular subjects have to be cross cutting.
[14:29:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> "design" and "development" camps are absolutely the wrong way to structure it.
[14:29:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> These are the sorts of cultural problems that we set out to address. The problems with sakai-dev and sakai-ui as a primary example.
[14:29:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: Let me give you an example
[14:30:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We were talking earlier about exactly what the expected keyboard behaviour for uploader should be.
[14:30:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That's a topic that both "camps" need to be in the loop on.
[14:30:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Details about the subtleties of DOM manipulation and deletion may be more focussed discussions.
[14:32:15 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> colinclark: agreed, but will I lose the one conversation because I am actively attempting to filter out the other conversations?
[14:32:50 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> where if there are two rooms, we can take the conversation to whatever room is appropriate
[14:33:18 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I find IRC like trying to have a conversation in a noisy room!
[14:33:41 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I'm willing to do it because it's the best tool we have, but you're about to make the room noisier
[14:34:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran: That's exactly what it is. A shared room. There are times when it's appropriate to move off to another place, and other times it's more effective to gather around the virtual "table" in the same room.
[14:34:20 EDT(-0400)] <jhung_ca> colincclark, ecochran: You can mute other people, so you're only "hearing" other people.
[14:34:35 EDT(-0400)] <jhung_ca> Not sure what the equiv IRC command is, but Pidgin supports it.
[14:35:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jhung_ca: Good point.
[14:35:14 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark is running out of batteries, so will head back to the office to plug in.
[14:35:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> brb
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[15:03:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ecochran, Bosmon, Justin_o: Unfortunately I'm going to have to leave early today. Are you guys good to continue to coordinate these fixes?
[15:03:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Code freeze is end of business day tomorrow.
[15:04:20 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> okay
[15:04:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Since ecochran is in the latest time zone, it'll be his end of business day.
[15:04:27 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> local end of biz or Toronto end of biz?
[15:04:35 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I spoke too late
[15:04:41 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> great!
[15:05:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Justin_o will take care of ensuring that all the issues are filed in JIRA and marked as blockers.
[15:05:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It would be great if the three of you could split up the work accordingly.
[15:05:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And if you need a hand, I can still be reached by phone or text msg.
[15:06:10 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Opera's padding on buttons is really wack!
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[15:11:11 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> could you guys let me know what browser you are testing uploader on
[15:36:03 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Justin (UT)
[15:36:03 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> 12:31
[15:36:04 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> i think the tab focus of the file queue might have to do with the scroll bar
[15:36:04 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Eli Cochran
[15:36:04 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> 12:34
[15:36:05 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> hmm
[15:36:06 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I'll play with that
[15:36:08 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Justin (UT)
[15:36:10 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> 12:35
[15:36:12 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> I'm going to create a new bug for that... and link it to Fluid-1004
[15:36:14 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Eli Cochran
[15:36:16 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> 12:35
[15:36:18 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> that it, nice
[15:36:20 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> that is it
[15:36:22 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> we should take this to the list so that Antranig can benefit from your insight!
[15:36:44 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> that was to verbatim
[15:39:20 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> what is strange is that I can still sometimes get the focus into the file queue even when there isn't a scrollbar, but it's hard, and I can't figure out how I sometimes do it
[15:39:28 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> ah, it's the arrowkeys again
[15:39:46 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> if I have another element focused, I can then arrow into the file queue, I can't throw focus to the queue using the tabkey
[15:40:03 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> of if nothing is focused then I can't arrow into the queue either
[15:40:19 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Bosmon: when you return, I hope that you get all this
[15:40:29 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> maybe I should put it into the bug as well
[15:40:59 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> i'm creating a new bug for the general case... did you want me to just link them
[15:41:50 EDT(-0400)] <ecochran> Justin_o: I think that you should
[15:42:00 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> okay
[16:21:26 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o> see fluid-1016, this is the bug relating to focus of file queue
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