fluid-work IRC Logs-2010-02-04

[04:57:41 EST(-0500)] * sveto (~sveto@62.44.108.2) has joined #fluid-work
[05:06:51 EST(-0500)] <sveto> hi Bosmon, are you there?
[05:07:11 EST(-0500)] <sveto> Bosmo1, Bosmon2 ^
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[08:15:09 EST(-0500)] * justin_o (~jmo@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
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[09:37:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> hey yura
[09:37:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How's it going?
[09:37:54 EST(-0500)] <yura> hey colinclark
[09:38:05 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How did it go last night with the import?
[09:38:33 EST(-0500)] <yura> well I m almost done with it , just need to figure out how to make put requests in java
[09:38:36 EST(-0500)] <yura> once that
[09:38:44 EST(-0500)] <yura> s done I think i can import
[09:40:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yura: Does this help? http://hc.apache.org/httpclient-3.x/apidocs/org/apache/commons/httpclient/methods/PutMethod.html
[09:40:41 EST(-0500)] <yura> colinclark: yes, i think i can use that
[09:46:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yura: Great. Let me know how it goes. I'll pair with you when I get into the office after the dev meeting
[09:46:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: Are you able to carry on with Language Selection today?
[09:47:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm thinking the insanely simple version will be pretty straightforward
[09:47:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And then we can move onto the Nav Bar and getting sveto's code into trunk
[09:47:34 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: yep should be able to do that... i guess i'll also do the i18n for the home page while i'm at it.
[09:48:03 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: Wicked
[09:49:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o, yura: We're back to being an uneven number of developers, but let's do what we can to code together as much as possible, and then use one of the many Bosmon's as help as well.
[09:49:23 EST(-0500)] <yura> colinclark: sounds good
[09:49:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: I think you should probably write tests for Language Selection right away, even while it's doing something pretty simple. Should make the testing easy
[09:49:58 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: that's a good idea
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[09:59:24 EST(-0500)] <jhung> boyan, so 9:30a ET is okay for you? The important steps we'll focus on will be the Capture and Export steps since our current development work is in those areas.
[10:00:28 EST(-0500)] <boyan> jhung, it's fine, that should be 4:30p EET, right?
[10:00:48 EST(-0500)] <jhung> Yes.
[10:01:19 EST(-0500)] <jhung> See you tomorrow. We can use Skype instead. What is your Skype username?
[10:04:15 EST(-0500)] * jessm (~Jess@c-71-232-3-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[10:04:55 EST(-0500)] <jessm> boyan: just to be clear about what I need from you: Oct - Dec accomplishments/work on Decapod w/ urls that folks can use to see if possible
[10:05:01 EST(-0500)] <jessm> boyan: do-able?
[10:05:18 EST(-0500)] <jessm> boyan: i can also filter through the list for some of this if your time is stretched
[10:06:05 EST(-0500)] <boyan> jessm: I'll do that, don't worry, I have most things in one place
[10:06:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[10:07:28 EST(-0500)] <boyan> jessm: should that be oriented to end users (i.e. not to dig in deeply into technical stuff)?
[10:09:09 EST(-0500)] <boyan> colinclark: I'll be online tuesday morning, we can have the chat some time before standup if that's ok for you
[10:09:59 EST(-0500)] <jessm> boyan: oriented to our funder, so not too technical, but descriptive if possible – and we're hoping to get this report out by end of day tomorrow – will that work?
[10:12:46 EST(-0500)] <boyan> jessm: definitely, time zone difference works for me this time
[10:13:46 EST(-0500)] <boyan> you'll probably have it in the morning
[10:35:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yura, justin_o, anastasiac: Dev meeting
[10:35:42 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: thanks.. for got about it
[10:36:23 EST(-0500)] <jessm> boyan: many thanks in advance!
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[10:38:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> boyan: Tuesday morning sounds great. Shall we aim for an hour before standup?
[10:57:58 EST(-0500)] <boyan> colinclark: yes, that's fine
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[11:02:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: jessm just volunteered to help us prepare string bundles for Engage
[11:05:37 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: excellent
[11:05:43 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> jessm: thanks
[11:05:58 EST(-0500)] <jessm> justin_o: my pleasure!
[11:16:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: Quick question for you
[11:16:47 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> sure
[11:16:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I was showing jessm how our string bundles work...
[11:16:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I made the mistake of using Browse as an example
[11:17:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> There are messages inside the Browse component directory that don't seem to make sense
[11:17:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So the messages_en.json isn't even complete (or syntactic)
[11:18:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And the French bundle doesn't seem to match what's in the defaults
[11:18:35 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> yes... i can go fix that up... i suppose the english one shouldn't even be there
[11:18:46 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: ^
[11:18:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: Sure, it's no big deal...
[11:19:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But what about the french ones? They don't match the same keys as in the defaults
[11:19:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The defaults has "categoryHeader", "allObjects", and "title"
[11:19:53 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The messages_fr.json has "upcomingCategory", "currentCategory", and "title"
[11:20:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: ^
[11:21:26 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: just changing it up now
[11:21:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Thanks so much
[11:21:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: To be clear, I wasn't asking you to fix it, just to help me understand it
[11:21:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But I appreciate you fixing it, too
[11:22:34 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: no problem.. shouldn't be too hard to fix... i'm not 100% sure the defaults are correct either... so i'll take a look at that too
[11:22:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
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[14:23:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> So I realised last night that we had implemented less than half of the JSGI spec so far
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[14:54:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: hey
[14:55:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> You are back - like a CATT
[14:55:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[14:55:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> you were saying?
[14:55:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:56:00 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Now, I am also looking at the quite nice display that Firebug 1.5 has of the various kinds of latency
[14:56:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> cool
[14:56:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It has many different colours
[14:57:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I realised that the "proper images" are actually loading from McCord's server
[14:58:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yes, that's right
[14:58:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Another thing I put in last night is millisecond stamps in our log messages... although of course on Windows you only get access to the usual crappy timer. I wonder that they never fix that
[14:59:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Markup rendering on the server is as I suspected really fairly slow
[15:01:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Interesting
[15:01:40 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How slow is slow?
[15:02:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, the browser thinks it takes around 300ms
[15:02:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> As for the previous comments about the images, I've been assuming that we'll see a significant speed-up when Hugues actually deploys Engage on the same network as his images
[15:02:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The server takes around 50% of that just ploughing through the URL rewriting in the header
[15:03:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> interesting
[15:03:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It will be interesting seeing where the other 50% has gone
[15:03:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It would be helpful if Firebug gave absolute times rather than offset ones
[15:07:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK, the remainder of the time occurs before rendering
[15:08:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Nice flurry of commits last night, by the way
[15:08:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Thanks so much for taking care of all those details, like the UTF-8 encoding in all our HTML files
[15:09:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Cheers, duad
[15:09:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So Yura and I worked a bit on the import this afternoon... He was indeed able to remove our dependency on jCouchDB and get rid of all our character encoding woes...
[15:09:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> except for a few that appear to be in Hugues' raw data
[15:10:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I helped him do a very superficial refactoring of the import code. There's a lot of work to be done there, but at least some general tidiness is in place.
[15:10:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That's cool
[15:11:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, it may indeed be the message bundles slowing things...
[15:12:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hmm
[15:12:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I have a funny idea
[15:14:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> What is it, Bosmon?
[15:16:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well... we just spend too long converting crap back into JSON and away again
[15:16:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Inspired by our JCouch experience, I wonder if we don't actually need a kind of "templating for JSON"
[15:18:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We would need to hack the NativeJSON stuff in Rhino... but I think we need to do that anyway
[15:21:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The great thing about JSON is that it is completely context-free.... so a lot of the work of compositing can just be done by concatenating strings
[15:22:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ah ok
[15:22:16 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The bulk of the time is actually going in acquiring and processing the model
[15:23:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Interesting...
[15:23:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Processing the model, meaning, running it through the "map?"
[15:24:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Actually no.... it is just on the fetch
[15:24:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> to CouchDB
[15:24:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> On my machine more than 200ms of request time goes on the model fetch
[15:24:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Looks like we don't have too much "air" in our pipeline other than the renderer
[15:24:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ah, interesting
[15:25:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am thinking we might be able to think about some caching of "most" of the document... but probably we can't do too much about that before the pilot
[15:25:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If it does seem as if it might be urgent, I might be able to come up with some last-minute insanity that might tide us over
[15:27:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I suspect we're gonna get to a point where speed is reasonable if do the basics--concat + minify, etc.
[15:27:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I don't know how much time you've spent with Engage on your Droid...
[15:27:57 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, none
[15:27:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What does it look like?
[15:28:01 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But I've certainly noticed things are just generally slower on the iPhone
[15:28:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think concat + min will help a lot here
[15:28:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: It looks great on yura's HTC Magic
[15:28:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And not too glacial?
[15:28:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It's not too bad. Not ideal, no
[15:28:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But workable
[15:29:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The Android browser, at least on the Magic, is pretty slow
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[15:29:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[15:29:15 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I guess we will just deal with things as they come
[15:29:24 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> jessm: i've added a message bundle for the home screen... there is no english bundle though... it is in the defaults for the component in Home.js
[15:29:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Especially if we are just writing "giant init blocks and URLs" on the server, we really don't need the full power of the renderer
[15:29:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We could even think about semi-crazy stuff like having it spit out a TrimPath template
[15:30:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[15:30:38 EST(-0500)] <jessm> justin_o: roger that
[15:33:27 EST(-0500)] <jessm> i'm about to start in on the mapping – I'll paste an example here to make sure it's in a useful format
[15:36:02 EST(-0500)] <yura> colinclark: I uploaded the patch to ENGAGE-323 jira
[15:36:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> thanks yura, I'll take a look
[15:40:00 EST(-0500)] <jessm> hrm, Preview.js has defaults but no strings. does that mean the user doesn't see anything in either English or French?
[15:40:43 EST(-0500)] <jessm> justin_o: colinclark: ^
[15:41:04 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> jessm: i think we dropped Preview.js
[15:41:15 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: can you verify that
[15:41:45 EST(-0500)] <jessm> justin_o: same is true for NavigationList
[15:41:47 EST(-0500)] <jessm> no strings
[15:41:53 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> it was tentatively added to be used for the catalogue preview on the exhibition main page, but i think we switched to just using a nav list or something...
[15:42:38 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> jessm: pretty sure that NavigationList doesn't have it's own strings
[15:42:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> justin_o: Does this mean we should remove Preview from Engage altogether?
[15:43:05 EST(-0500)] <jessm> justin_o: i'm just going to go through all of them and mark what i find and we can go back and deal with details
[15:43:18 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> colinclark: yes
[15:43:31 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> i believe it isn't used by at all
[15:43:44 EST(-0500)] <justin_o> jessm: thanks... sounds like a good idea
[15:43:53 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: justin_o is right, NavList doesn't have its own strings.
[15:51:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Hey everyone in the channel, yura is going to rebuild the Engage daily build. Heads up!
[15:57:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The Language Selection screen is now in the daily build and it's starting to shape up nicely.
[15:59:04 EST(-0500)] <jessm> yippee
[15:59:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: That was the funniest email you just sent
[15:59:34 EST(-0500)] <jessm> why?!
[16:00:41 EST(-0500)] <jessm> i'm ready to dig in – maybe i need a code mentor! just kidding
[16:01:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> No, funny just because you wanted to chat in the channel about it
[16:01:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> it's good
[16:01:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You rule. Plus, you have both the King and I to be your code mentors
[16:02:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And Yul Brynner, I guess
[16:03:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Interestingly, there's a character encoding problem in your text file, though
[16:04:01 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Just after Yura fixes it in the codebase, it returns!
[16:04:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Whatever you ultimately send to Hugues should be encoded as UTF-8, not the default Western that TextEdit seems to default to.
[16:05:36 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: ahhh, i've had complaints about that before
[16:06:01 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Other than that, I think this is pretty thorough
[16:16:43 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: weird, it is UTF-8 and LF line endings – can you check your app to see if it's different?
[16:17:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> hmm, interesting... maybe it is on my end
[16:17:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Ack, I'm so sorry
[16:17:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It seems TextEdit sucks
[16:17:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Once I opened it in TextMate, it read the character encoding correctly.
[16:18:21 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Anyway, you've got everything here as far as I see. We'll see what justin_o says when he's got a second, but I think this is good to go
[16:18:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> As for your questions...
[16:19:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The components that don't have messages_fr.json haven't had any awkward attempts at localization done to them--but they will need them assuming the component has a strings option.
[16:21:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Those that do have messages_en.json files have them for a reason--It generally means that we're overriding the default english strings with alternatives.
[16:21:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But for the majority of cases, messages_en.json files aren't required.
[16:31:42 EST(-0500)] <jessm> k
[16:32:06 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: is there anything Hugues needs to know about this file?
[16:32:13 EST(-0500)] <jessm> or is he just waiting for it and then ready to go?
[16:32:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: He probably needs some context
[16:32:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think, to start, we can explain that each of our language bundles is structured as JSON
[16:33:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> "key": "value"
[16:34:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Dynamic value replacement is done with % symbols
[16:34:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I imagine he's done this sort of thing before, so it shouldn't be a big deal
[16:34:29 EST(-0500)] <jessm> you wanna pass the message to hugues with the file?
[16:36:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> 'sup to you, jessm. Would you prefer that?
[16:36:30 EST(-0500)] <jessm> yeah, 'cause i'm not gonna help him with key value % – i'm going to tell him it's a matching game
[16:36:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> lol
[16:37:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> it is a matching game
[16:38:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Ok, so send him the file as-is?
[16:38:37 EST(-0500)] <jessm> yep
[16:39:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> thanks, boss
[16:39:32 EST(-0500)] <jessm> my pleasure, happy to do other stuff if it's helpful too
[16:39:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You can be fj5000, I'll be fj60000
[16:40:00 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: is there something that isn't an immediate need? i can take a look
[16:40:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> There are a few things, yes
[16:40:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Let me grab you a URL
[16:40:57 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> hey fj6000: http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/engage/catalogue/view.html?db=mccord_exhibitions&amp;title=Simply+Montréal%3A+Glimpses+of+a+Unique+City&lang=en
[16:41:07 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> This is Catalogue Browse
[16:41:24 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> Notice that "descriptions" for each artifact are shifted down
[16:41:36 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> and causing the nav list item container to overflow?
[16:41:44 EST(-0500)] <fj6000> yeppers
[16:41:54 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> Dunno why, quite
[16:42:11 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> I've found, ultimately, that FireBug is still better for CSS debugging than the one built into Safari
[16:42:18 EST(-0500)] <fj6000> k, i've no idea if i can be helpful, but i'll poke around
[16:42:32 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> But if you want to use it, go to the Develop menu and choose Show Web Inspector
[16:42:49 EST(-0500)] <fj6000> fj5000: i've got firebug
[16:42:57 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> cool, fj6000
[16:43:12 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> Now we should crack some jokes if we are to play the part
[16:43:23 EST(-0500)] <fj5000> I don't think I'm funny enough to fill these shoes
[16:43:38 EST(-0500)] <fj6000> yeah, me either
[16:45:03 EST(-0500)] <yura> colinclark: I uploaded the patch to ENGAGE-323 (b) for nav list markup
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[17:28:16 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: where's dat developer bug finder in safari?
[17:28:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: It's under the Develop menu, but I think you need to enable it in a preference.
[17:28:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Lemme just check
[17:28:52 EST(-0500)] <jessm> found it
[17:29:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> cool
[17:41:04 EST(-0500)] <jessm> colinclark: what does it mean when something has a strikethrough – does it mean that parameter is being overriden by another css file?
[17:41:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jessm: Yep, another declaration somewhere else is overriding it.
[17:41:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> My experience with FSS is that specificity is key
[17:41:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Which I guess is true of CSS in general
[17:41:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But you'll see that Jacob has structured things in little, composable building blocks
[17:41:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So overrides do frequently occur
[17:41:57 EST(-0500)] <jessm> yes
[17:42:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> A typical strategy to get your own declaration to win is to use a more specific selector... be precise about the hierarchy of elements you're working in
[17:42:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You know CSS better than I do, so I probably just sound like a dork here
[17:42:34 EST(-0500)] <jessm> um, right
[17:50:29 EST(-0500)] <jessm> grrr, the piglet declaration is trumping all others – i'll have to get back to this
[17:58:37 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac (~team@142.150.154.193) has left #fluid-work
[21:12:37 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (~colin@bas2-toronto09-1176131325.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work