fluid-work IRC Logs-2009-10-16

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Last updated: Oct 16, 2009Version comment
25 min read

[07:27:26 EDT(-0400)] * joan (n=joan@62.97.110.250) has joined #fluid-work
[07:27:36 EDT(-0400)] <joan> hi all.
[07:28:38 EDT(-0400)] <joan> tonight and early today, i've learned a painfull lesson. My aptana does not access infusion if its outside my project. Beautifull !!.
[07:30:11 EDT(-0400)] <joan> i was getting crazy because the external javascript links didn't load. And the url was got from outside aptana.
[07:30:14 EDT(-0400)] <joan> ver curious!.
[07:39:04 EDT(-0400)] <joan> sorry. lapsus writting. And the include urls were god for the browser. Very fanny!.
[07:44:06 EDT(-0400)] <joan> i keep going with the component bug-parade.
[08:26:54 EDT(-0400)] * Justin_o (n=Justin@142.150.154.171) has joined #fluid-work
[08:52:06 EDT(-0400)] * laurel (n=Laurel@142.150.154.178) has joined #fluid-work
[09:11:35 EDT(-0400)] * jayshao_ (n=jayshao@69.115.19.12) has joined #fluid-work
[09:14:18 EDT(-0400)] * fj4000 (n=Main@CPE0018f85ab63e-CM001692f5798c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fluid-work
[09:16:44 EDT(-0400)] * Topic is 'Bug Parade Engage 0.1: http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=10128' set by Justin_o on 2009-10-16 09:16:44 EDT(-0400)
[09:21:07 EDT(-0400)] * Justin_o (n=Justin@142.150.154.171) has left #fluid-work
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[09:38:35 EDT(-0400)] * michelled (n=michelle@142.150.154.193) has joined #fluid-work
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[09:49:43 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> fj4000, jessm: I'm looking at http://fluidproject.org/products/infusion/download-infusion/ and noting that the page no longer contains "known issues" - would you prefer me to put in the known issues from the readme file, or remove the link and just put something about seeing the readme file
[09:53:57 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> laurel: i think the code was commented out
[09:54:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> pending your scrubbing and update for that content
[09:54:50 EDT(-0400)] * EricDalquist (n=dalquist@bohemia.doit.wisc.edu) has joined #fluid-work
[09:55:07 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> sorry fj4000 - maybe I wasn't clear...there is a broken link to known issues still there
[09:55:09 EDT(-0400)] * clown (n=clown@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[09:55:16 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> laurel, jessm: fj4000 and I talked about the Known issues section on that page last night
[09:55:23 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> yes, the link to the anchor should be removed/changed
[09:55:26 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> so I can either add known issues or alter the broken link
[09:55:34 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> but the info duplicated the info in the readme, and in JIRA
[09:55:42 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> and updating it manually is time-consuming and error-prone
[09:56:13 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> We should have a "1.1.2 Known Issues" JIRA filter (if we don't yet we should make one - Justin_o_ probably knows)
[09:56:20 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> and this page (and the readme) could link to that
[09:56:45 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o_> anastasiac: there should be one already... it is displayed on the 1.1.2 release status page if I'm not mistaken
[09:57:01 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I don't see one for 1.1.2, only 1.1.1
[09:57:21 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o_> http://issues.fluidproject.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&amp;requestId=10272
[09:57:23 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o_> that's the filter
[09:57:55 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o_> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Infusion+1.1.2+Release+Status
[09:57:59 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> so laurel, I think the link on the downloads page could link to the JIRA filter
[09:57:59 EDT(-0400)] <Justin_o_> that's the release status page
[09:58:23 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> maybe with a wee bit more text, like "see known issues for more information"
[09:58:35 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> ok...i'll update and run it by you.
[09:58:49 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> anastasiac: do we have/need a page like this (http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Upgrading+from+Infusion+1.0+to+Infusion+1.1.x) for upgrading from 1.1.1 to 1.1.2?
[09:59:13 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> looks like its supposed to be generic for 1.1.x
[09:59:34 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> fj4000, laurel and I just discussed that: No, we don't
[09:59:38 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok
[09:59:41 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> we're going to change the name to 1.1.x
[09:59:43 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm ^
[09:59:47 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> since we didn't make any API changes
[09:59:50 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> thanks
[10:06:07 EDT(-0400)] * athena (n=athena@adsl-75-58-127-15.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net) has joined #fluid-work
[10:07:50 EDT(-0400)] * jessm (n=Jess@c-71-232-1-65.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[10:08:40 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i'm assuming y'all have already seen that the nightly build failed – svn: Failed to add directory 'engage': object of the same name already exists
[10:08:54 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: I'm done the download and front page
[10:09:00 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> moving to wiki
[10:09:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel: great, thanks!
[10:10:23 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: i'm going to push the news item live
[10:10:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> on the website
[10:10:44 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok, then does that mean the email should be sent now?
[10:11:06 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> did you check into the upgrading docs?
[10:11:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: i'm going to do some trimming to the short news item from the front page
[10:11:35 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> yes, i pinged you in the channel here with anastasiac 's response
[10:11:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i just joined the channel at 10:08
[10:11:48 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> sorry i missed it
[10:11:50 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ach
[10:11:58 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> then you juuuust missed it
[10:12:29 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: I will send out the email then
[10:12:40 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm: it's the incubator nightly build that failed
[10:12:42 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: hold on one second
[10:12:44 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok
[10:13:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: i have to trim the craptastic job that CMSMS did on the news piece
[10:13:01 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it's because of the partial restructuring that we've done
[10:13:03 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> on the index page
[10:13:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: roger that
[10:13:13 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: ok we have fluid rss feed on the wiki page, but it's long!! I need to figure out how to set how many articles...
[10:13:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel: look at the syntax used on the other feeds on the main wiki page – they show how to specify # of articles
[10:14:52 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: solved
[10:16:05 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: I'll be back in 5
[10:17:12 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: take a look at the front page news piece – does it look ok?
[10:17:30 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: not ideal, i know to edit live, but it needed to be trimmed
[10:17:57 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> it's fine
[10:18:06 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> a little like a text blob, but fine
[10:19:15 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: can I go ahead with the email now?
[10:19:58 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: yes, to "announce"
[10:20:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: text blob...
[10:25:26 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: email sent. Yay!
[10:25:36 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yay!
[10:25:42 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> way to go team – excellent work
[10:25:50 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac applaurds
[10:26:01 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> infusion 1.1.2 >> out the door
[10:26:06 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> which is very much like applauding
[10:26:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> now, on to engage (wink)
[10:26:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> anastasiac: please hold your applaurds until all the releasing happens (wink)
[10:28:44 EDT(-0400)] * athena thinks some half-way through applauds is still warranted (smile)
[10:28:45 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> whew....
[10:34:18 EDT(-0400)] * Justin_o (n=Justin@142.150.154.171) has joined #fluid-work
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[11:00:14 EDT(-0400)] * justin_o (n=jmo@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[11:01:01 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: justin_o , java/org/fluidproject/engage folder is currently not being used and requires already removed mapping directory in kettle
[11:01:52 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark, Bosmon, Bosmon2: do you think we should put 'mapping' into the enage 0.1 war or remove the java folder yura1mentioned above?
[11:02:06 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yura1: what sorts of services are available in the java folder?
[11:02:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I don't see any reason to ship the mapping stuff yet.
[11:02:24 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> XML to JSON conversion tasks
[11:02:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's largely a record of performance comparisons and tests.
[11:02:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That said, we do certainly use part of it to import data into Couch
[11:03:07 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> colinclark: i think that directory doesn't have that part included at all
[11:03:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> is it something we can point interested people to the svn repo for?
[11:03:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yes, but the question is...
[11:03:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> If we need to import more data, will this move be a problem?
[11:04:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I should clarify what justin_o and I are doing
[11:04:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Please
[11:04:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> we aren't moving things around at this point - we are just massaging the WAR file creation to build something we want to ship
[11:04:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok
[11:04:43 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> so you'll notice that we did just change the externals for fluid-all
[11:04:49 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> colinclark: well the code that is importing data to couch is working as standalone at the moment so it could be run from anywhere
[11:04:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura1: Cool
[11:04:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> that was because we wanted to ship the tagged version of infusion
[11:05:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Meaning, it shouldn't be in the WAR, right yura1?
[11:05:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I guess I'm wondering about the value of removing stuff from the WAR in script (by writing code) in cases where stuff should just simply be removed. (smile)
[11:06:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> fair enough - and you probably saw that justin_o did remove some unused files this morning as part of this process
[11:06:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Cool
[11:06:23 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> colinclark: yes
[11:06:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, lemme fire up my Eclipse and take a cruise through everything
[11:11:49 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: do you remember what we wanted to name kettle/src/webapp/engage? was it going to be application?
[11:11:59 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it has a js dir in it with EngageApp in it
[11:12:19 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> colinclark: right now the code that parses and imports data into couch in scratchpad/services-sketches
[11:12:50 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yura1: interesting. so perhaps this java directory should move there too?
[11:13:36 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: you mean from incubator to scratchpad?
[11:13:46 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ya
[11:14:46 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> since it contains the code that's used to compare and test different algorithms, it does look like a scratchpad material
[11:15:16 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: ^
[11:15:20 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ya, meaning things in incubator we intend on shipping but we likely won't every ship that
[11:15:26 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> yes
[11:16:13 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> however standalone conversion code along with importing code , that's currently in scratchpad will eventually be promoted incubator and perhaps to trunk
[11:19:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> for sure
[11:19:53 EDT(-0400)] * elicochran (n=elicochr@dhcp-169-229-212-41.LIPS.Berkeley.EDU) has joined #fluid-work
[11:24:28 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> justin_o: ping
[11:29:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> standup
[11:38:24 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: i cant seem to get it
[11:38:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: k
[11:43:00 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: i went into the announce list admin interface and pushed fj4000s message out
[11:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> so, it has been sent
[11:43:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> just received it
[11:43:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[11:43:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: do we push it to sakai?
[11:43:24 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> or do they grab it?
[11:43:29 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and uportal?
[11:43:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We tend to send the announce emails to sakai-ui and jasig-ue, I believe.
[11:44:16 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jessm: the incubator build is working again
[11:44:19 EDT(-0400)] <athena> jasig-ue would be an excellent target
[11:44:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: thanks!
[11:44:32 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> np
[11:45:42 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> i will track down addresses for sakai-ui and jasig-ue and will forward the announcement
[11:46:36 EDT(-0400)] * justin_o (n=jmo@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
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[11:54:49 EDT(-0400)] <athena> jessm: info for jasig-ue is here - http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/JSG/jasig-ue
[11:54:58 EDT(-0400)] <athena> list address is jasig-ue@lists.ja-sig.org
[11:55:09 EDT(-0400)] <athena> whoever is doing the sending needs to be a list member
[11:55:27 EDT(-0400)] <athena> which i think fj4000 is already
[11:55:51 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> i believe so
[11:56:36 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: should I send it to that list to, or will that happen automatically via fluid-announce ?
[11:56:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> fj4000: You need to send it yourself.
[11:57:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok, will do
[11:57:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: go ahead and send to jasig-ue
[11:57:36 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> do you have the sakai address too?
[11:57:47 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> it would be better to just send it once to both
[11:59:06 EDT(-0400)] * athena does not
[11:59:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: ^
[12:00:02 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: lemme check – hang on
[12:00:07 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok thanks
[12:01:19 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: sakai-ux@collab.sakaiproject.org
[12:01:26 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> awesome
[12:01:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> colinclark: is that the one we want? ^
[12:01:34 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> i will resend to both addresses now
[12:01:42 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> orrr, wait
[12:01:48 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai-ux
[12:01:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> jessm, fj4000: That'd be the one, yes
[12:02:15 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok, jessm colinclark: sakai-ux@collab.sakaiproject.org is the right address ?
[12:02:22 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: yes
[12:02:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> fj4000: yes
[12:02:26 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> ok then
[12:03:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I have the Kettle Cherry Py demo running fine now.
[12:03:24 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> great!
[12:03:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Opinions about whether it should be mounted for this release or not?
[12:03:45 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I think it doesn't hurt to mount it
[12:03:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm going to also get the raw JSGI demo working as well, for completeness
[12:04:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I think I agree with you.
[12:04:26 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sounds good
[12:04:59 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> jessm: done
[12:05:52 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: awesome!
[12:07:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: jameswy: http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2009/presentations you're a go
[12:07:45 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks jessm
[12:14:56 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark (n=colin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[12:29:54 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> fj4000: http://fluidproject.org/products/infusion/ - "available for download" link doesn't work - do I remember you said something about that a while back to me?
[12:30:14 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> this is a logged bug
[12:30:20 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> from a while ago
[12:34:26 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: not sure what I should use for kuali link http://www.kuali.org/ or http://student.kuali.org/ - our text says kuali student (http://fluidproject.org/partners/fluid-academic-partners/)
[12:36:34 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> jessm: cools, thanks
[12:40:11 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> fj4000: do you know if it is a css issue - the code seems to be fine?
[12:40:30 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> it is a css issue
[12:41:22 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> thx for the clarification.
[12:42:31 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> specifically, a transparent graphic is slight obscuring the link
[12:42:50 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> and needs to be refactored to not encroach into the text space
[12:42:59 EDT(-0400)] <elicochran> hi guys, I'm suddenly getting double notifications from the fluid svn!
[12:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> elicochran: Me too
[12:43:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Did anyone change the post-commit hook for SVN?
[12:43:28 EDT(-0400)] <elicochran> colinclark: well, that's good, as long as it's not only me
[13:01:49 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Yes, I am also geting double-notifications
[13:01:54 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It started sometime yesterday evening
[13:08:29 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel: use kuali student please
[13:18:15 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> for me, the double notifications started with [Commits] svn commit: 8346
[13:33:24 EDT(-0400)] * Bosmon2 (n=amb26fre@c-24-8-184-141.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
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[13:49:04 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> jamon: many FE thanks for helping anne-marie
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[14:09:05 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: would you mind adding http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/ENGAGE-130
[14:09:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: To the parade?
[14:10:03 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> to the bug parade... i already have a fix that i could commit and it will keep the html pages that sit inside the browse directory from looking somewhat wrong
[14:10:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: It's a good simple fix. You got it.
[14:10:48 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jamon: did you see the conversation above? everyone is getting two copies of the commit messages
[14:11:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jameswy: have there been any commits to design since yesterday afternoon?
[14:11:36 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> michelled: to /svn/design you mean? none.
[14:11:41 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> yes... basically there is an option in NavigationList.js called useDefaultImage this is currenlty set to true, but should just be changed to false. I also need to override this option in the browse component
[14:11:47 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: ^
[14:12:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok
[14:12:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> justin_o: Done
[14:12:35 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> colinclark: thanks
[14:13:49 EDT(-0400)] <laurel> jessm: ok jess
[14:15:24 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> justin_o, colinclark, Bosmon, Bosmon2, yura1: I think we have another task that we should do before the engage release. Right now it takes a long time to load when you select one of the 'browse' links. I think we should warn people somewhere - perhaps right on the index page?
[14:16:13 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: would adding that info to the message that is on the index page be enough
[14:16:16 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jameswy, jessm: not sure if you saw that we now have a nightly build of engage http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/engage/demo/index.html
[14:16:19 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: that sounds like a good idea
[14:16:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> now you can see where we are (smile)
[14:16:45 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: holy moley that's awesome
[14:16:47 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> michelled: awesomeness, this is uber useful.
[14:16:53 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> (smile)
[14:17:13 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> That index page is sexy.
[14:17:39 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> any ideas on where the 'this is slow' warning should go jameswy?
[14:17:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the browse links take about 10 seconds to return.
[14:20:26 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: the mccord browse page is probably a bit longer
[14:20:33 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> michelled: yeah, right between the blurb and links would make best sense. Maybe with a bit of orange-reddish highlight to emphasize the caution
[14:22:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yura1: do you have time to implement jameswy suggestion? ^
[14:23:16 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> michelled, yura1: I have time on Monday to implement it if he's too busy
[14:23:28 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: I have time today
[14:23:32 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thx
[14:25:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We have Uber Awesomeness Cake here
[14:25:51 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: did you commit your change to kettleDemo? I am moving things around and I don't want to do that if you have code changes
[14:25:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: Ack!
[14:25:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> sorry
[14:26:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i'm too busy eating cake
[14:26:11 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the cake is yummy!
[14:26:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I have the commit log open, just need to type it in
[14:30:21 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Yeah, the system is taking about 10 seconds in JSON.parse
[14:30:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Incredible
[14:30:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Nothing else takes more than 1 second... although even that is relatively poor (tongue)
[14:31:27 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But something like 80-90% of the request time is spent in JSON.parse...
[14:35:39 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.js-engine.rhino/browse_thread/thread/33be25394cb7eeb0
[14:35:55 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Seems that even with "native JSON" it is still 20 times slower than V8 (tongue)
[14:45:08 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> "Hannes" has a patch which brings it close to parity with V8
[14:45:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> After release, if there is no pending Rhino release, I suggest we "roll our own" with this patch and stick it in our repo
[14:51:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I love r8365!
[14:51:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So exciting!
[14:52:19 EDT(-0400)] * yura1 (n=yura@142.150.82.121) has joined #fluid-work
[14:56:41 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> and it was so easy - just a change in kettle includes (smile)
[14:57:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I just committed my fix to the demos.
[14:58:48 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> colinclark: do both kettleDemo and engageDemo belong in services?
[14:58:55 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> michelled: I think so, yes
[15:24:48 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> i think double commits should be resolved now, there was an extra line in post-commit hooks that wasn't part of the conditional checks
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[15:24:59 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> michelled: ^
[15:25:14 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> thanks jamon
[15:42:37 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon2, do you have a minute for Inline Edit accessor and views questions?
[15:43:20 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon: ^
[15:47:03 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Just going to a meeting right now, but time for a really quick Q
[15:47:17 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> oh, this is probably not quick at all - maybe tomorrow?
[15:47:38 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Hmm, let me think about the timezones...
[15:47:47 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I guess I might be available 5 your time today?
[15:47:55 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> but I won't (sad)
[15:48:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> ok, tomorrow then
[15:48:04 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ack - not tomorrow - Monday (of course)
[15:48:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> ah
[15:48:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> thanks, tho!
[15:48:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, Monday will be a bit bad since I will be travelling to the UK
[15:48:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Will probably not arrive before the end of your work day
[15:48:30 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> hm
[15:48:35 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Can you give me a quick idea what it is about?
[15:48:39 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> or perhaps we can do it by email
[15:48:46 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> maybe email is best
[15:48:50 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> it takes a bit of explaining
[15:48:51 EDT(-0400)] * laurel (n=Laurel@142.150.154.178) has joined #fluid-work
[15:48:55 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> thanks!
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[16:25:36 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled:, jameswy does this look orangy enough (smile) ? http://142.150.82.121:8080/demo/index.html
[16:26:13 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1: Great choice of orange!
[16:26:25 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: thanks (smile)
[16:26:38 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: should I change the text somehow?
[16:26:42 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1: couldn't have chosen a better shade of orange myself
[16:26:53 EDT(-0400)] * fj4000 (n=Main@CPE0018f85ab63e-CM001692f5798c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #fluid-work
[16:27:20 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: does the text sound friendly enough?
[16:28:40 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> I would maybe write, "Note: This demo is not performance optimized. "Browse" links will take long to load."
[16:29:00 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: great, I ll change that
[16:30:06 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: try now
[16:31:31 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1: Looks good! btw, can you get rid of that extra line between "Fluid Engage 0.1" and "Technology Preview"?
[16:32:09 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> sure
[16:33:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> yura1 and jameswy: Could we also make the language a bit more informal?
[16:33:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Maybe "Browsing collections is a bit slow in this version of Engage. This is an issue we'll address in the next release" ?
[16:34:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just a thought. No big deal either way (smile)
[16:34:11 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1, colinclark: Colin's writing is more friendly. Let's use that.
[16:34:46 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> colinclark: jameswy ok
[16:36:20 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: try the latest one (smile)
[16:37:13 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1: haha, I feel like I'm being a stickler, but... it's on the same line now!
[16:37:40 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> ill move it down
[16:37:58 EDT(-0400)] <jameswy> yura1: it's not a big deal either way--cats won't perish because it wasn't on a second line
[16:43:33 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> jameswy: colinclark just committed the index page change
[16:43:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks yura1!
[16:57:35 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> colinclark, jameswy, michelled, yura1: im heading out, have a great weekend guys and dont forget to update your copy of fluid-all to get the svn externals change (tongue)
[16:57:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> fj4000: you too
[16:57:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> thanks
[16:58:01 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> congrats again colin
[16:58:02 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> see you monday fj4000
[16:58:13 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> bye!
[17:25:44 EDT(-0400)] * Lee_Bee (n=UXExpert@96.49.146.59) has joined #fluid-work
[18:00:47 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Well done, chaps (tongue)
[18:00:53 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Especially on the smashing orangey bit
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[18:53:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Have a good weekend, Lee_Bee. Glad you're hanging out in the channel!
[18:55:45 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> You too colin! I'm hoping I'll start joining in on the dev discussions but for now I"m just trying to interpret and understnad
[18:57:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Cool
[18:57:26 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> hmm... how do I send a msg to a specific person?
[18:57:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Don't feel too shy, we'll be nice. Though we are occasionally pretty nerdy in here.
[18:58:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> To a specific person. It depends on if you want it to be public or private.
[18:58:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So if you just want to get someone's attention, just add their name.
[18:58:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Lee_Bee: Like this
[18:58:26 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Oh!!
[18:58:36 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> colinclark is cool
[18:58:46 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> it didn't work
[18:58:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aw shucks
[18:58:52 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> or did it?
[18:59:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It totally worked
[18:59:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It caused Colloquy to Flash extra loudly, so I knew you were talking to me.
[18:59:42 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I guess it doesn't show up on my screen...
[18:59:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Many of us just keep Colloquy on in the background and ignore it until somone pings us with our name.
[19:00:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You don't see it on your end, but I see it on mine.
[19:00:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> If you want to send a private message, you can double click on the person's name and Colloquy will open up a new private chat window.
[19:00:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But I tend never to use private IRC... I'd rather just use something else for that and keep IRC public.
[19:01:20 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I agree. I figure I'll be more in the know once the next release comes. This is where all the insider talk happens... (tongue)
[19:01:37 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> and hopefully more helpful with bug testing.
[19:02:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:02:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Well, we haven't released Engage yet, so you're still in luck.
[19:03:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> All of that release action was for Infusion, our JavaScript framework and components.
[19:03:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Engage uses Infusion, but it's a totally separate product.
[19:03:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So we'll start testing Engage on Monday or Tuesday.
[19:03:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You're probably not missing a lot of "insider" talk here in the channel. If you read the bug parade and other update emails on the mailing list, you'll be in the loop on where we're at.
[19:04:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But it does take some time to get used to the language and how everything works.
[19:04:30 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> That's what's challenging for me.
[19:04:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'd be happy to give you a primer if you want
[19:04:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Any time.
[19:04:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Just ping me here
[19:04:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or by email
[19:04:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or by IM
[19:05:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or any way. (tongue)
[19:05:18 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> lol. thank you.
[19:06:21 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> If anything I just want to know more about what's going on dev-wise. I like this because it's info in real-time
[19:06:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Totally
[19:06:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Lee_Bee: Have you seen the daily build of Engage 0.1 yet?
[19:07:17 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> no I haven't.
[19:07:34 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Is it ready for viewing? (big grin)
[19:07:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So that's another way of seeing what we're up to in real-time. Or at least, daily time.
[19:07:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yep, it's always ready for viewing (smile)
[19:07:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/engage/demo/index.html
[19:07:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Try that in Safari
[19:07:49 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Frick...
[19:07:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or on your iPhone, if you have one.
[19:07:56 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm so out of the loop!
[19:08:15 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Does it need to be the latest version of Safari?
[19:08:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Better to be the latest, but it'll probably work in whatever version you've got.
[19:08:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Unfortunately Engage 0.1, because it's designed for the iPhone, only looks good in Safari
[19:08:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And best with a nice small screen.
[19:09:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here's the main page for our daily builds: http://build.fluidproject.org/
[19:09:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The link to the Demo Portal is a way to see all our Infusion components in action.
[19:09:27 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> This is awesome!
[19:09:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And then, of course, you'll be most interested in the Engage daily build.
[19:09:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Throughout the project-and forever, in fact-the daily build will always show the latest and greatest.
[19:09:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So that's real data from McCord and MMI there.
[19:10:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Unfortunately you'll also notice our worst bug
[19:10:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> The fact that Browsing collections is really slow and just shows you junk at first.
[19:10:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (sad)
[19:10:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So that's the point of the daily build--you get to see everything, in real time.
[19:11:05 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> So what is the demo portal? Just where all the engage components are?
[19:11:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Lee_Bee: That's where all the Infusion components are, yes.
[19:11:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Engage, separate.
[19:11:55 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Ah
[19:11:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I imagine that as Engage matures, we'll also create a much more slick demo experience for our users, too.
[19:12:09 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> And the daily builds are under the title Engage demos?
[19:12:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yes, that's right. For the Engage 0.1 release, we'll probably remove the other links and only showcase the main build.
[19:12:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> i.e. this thing: http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/engage/demo/index.html
[19:13:05 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> So THAT's what michelle and Jess where talking about yesterday!
[19:13:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:13:14 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> It's all coming together.
[19:13:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> (smile)
[19:13:17 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You'll notice there are links to other stuff, too.
[19:13:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For example, take a look at this link:
[19:13:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://titan.atrc.utoronto.ca:5984/_utils/
[19:13:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Super nerdy, but it's a view into the data we were given from MMI and McCord
[19:13:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Soon we'll put DIA's data in there
[19:14:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You're browsing a database, so it's pretty confusing. But it's a chance to see what the raw data looks like, before it's been nicely presented by Engage.
[19:14:11 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Whoa... what are the title's
[19:14:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:14:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I assume these will have readable titles... eventually
[19:15:06 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Totally. That's just the raw data in the database.
[19:15:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Here's what an artifact looks like to real users:
[19:15:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://build.fluidproject.org:8095/engage/artifacts/view.html?mmi&amp;1984.077.0021
[19:15:14 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> And this is CouchDB right?
[19:15:37 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Ha! Awesome
[19:15:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Lee_Bee: Yep. So CouchDB is the database we use for Engage's data feeds.
[19:16:18 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> and the kiosk will also aggregate information from this?
[19:16:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yes, exactly.
[19:16:48 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I must sound like a total newbie. Your patience is most appreciated
[19:16:52 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> No worries.
[19:16:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's nice to have the opportunity to explain it.
[19:17:21 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So one of the things that's important about how we handle our data--and the reason I showed you that dorky link to CouchDB...
[19:17:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Is because we don't try to force all of a museum's data into a specific structure dictated by us.
[19:17:55 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I see...
[19:18:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Rather than trying to create one single schema or format for the data, our data feeds are smart. They can adapt to differen types of collections.
[19:18:38 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> How do they do this? Keywords?
[19:18:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, a natural history museum is going to have a very different set of fields than an art museum.
[19:18:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We can roll with that.
[19:19:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We do this by creating a kind of "map" of a museum's data.
[19:19:36 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> are these maps specific to each museum?
[19:19:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yep, exactly. So, when a new museum started to use Engage, they'd "draw" a little map of their data so Engage knows how to use it.
[19:20:13 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> that's fascinating. I'd be very interested to know how the museum draws this map
[19:20:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> At the moment, they'd need someone technical to help them with it. But I'd like-someday, not yet-to build tools that let them do this graphically.
[19:21:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> So awesome... that's what I've been wondering about for some time
[19:21:38 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> And I guess this also directly relates to my questions around the Staff workflow
[19:21:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For sure.
[19:22:10 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> One of the reasons for this "schema-less" approach is also to make it easier to ensure that data stays up to date in different systems. By not forcing everyone's data into our format, it's easier for us to share data back into their systems, too.
[19:22:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So for example, some museums might find visitor-contributed tags very useful for cataloguing their own data.
[19:22:36 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> right
[19:22:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There's no reason we couldn't share those tags back with TMS or whatever the museum is using.
[19:23:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In fact, some musems won't even use our database.
[19:23:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So they won't use Couch at all, they'll use their own
[19:23:42 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Is there a way for me to see how you're currently aggregating all the data into couchDB?
[19:23:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hmm, good question
[19:24:03 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> It's hard for me to visualize... that's all
[19:24:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> How we're doing, in terms of what steps we take to get a museum's data into CouchDB?
[19:24:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> yeah... I guess taht's the mapping part?
[19:24:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok.
[19:24:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> At the moment, there's not much to visualize. Right now, we have some programs that we run to import data into Couch.
[19:25:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Basically, the museum gives us either a comma-delimited (like from Excel) or an XML document, and we can import it.
[19:25:14 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> ok
[19:25:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For Engage 0.3, we're planning to have a simple user interface for importing data.
[19:25:23 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> cool!
[19:25:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, at very least, a museum will be able to easily upload their own data.
[19:25:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Then, for a future release, we can make an awesome tool for "drawing" the data map.
[19:25:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For the kiosk, we can assume that the data is already in the systme.
[19:26:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And that the map has already been drawn.
[19:26:10 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Right...
[19:26:15 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For the DIA, we'll do it for them until we've got tools to make it easier.
[19:26:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And they're also hiring a technical consultant who will help them write scripts or import data or create the map or whatever they need.
[19:27:01 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Does TMS spit out an XML document or do they have to do this themselves??
[19:27:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, it'll spit XML or comma-delimited out.
[19:27:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's something that a registrar has to do, but it's easy to do
[19:27:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> oh right on.
[19:27:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We can also hook up an automatic feed from TMS into Couch eventually.
[19:28:21 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> What can't we do... (smile)
[19:28:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> These things just take time.
[19:29:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So far, we've been assuming that we're best to focus on end-user experience, even if it'll take a bit of work to get the data in, etc.
[19:30:02 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> That's a wonderful approach. I like that Fluid takes UX to heart
[19:30:11 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Is it too premature for the design team to try and come up with an interface for the staff input?
[19:30:32 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Good question
[19:30:43 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I think this is what Vicki and I were trying to propose awkwardly the last little while
[19:30:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I imagine that we'll want to continue tweaking the Kiosk wireframes, and then think about authoring rather than import next.
[19:30:57 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Right
[19:31:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So when I say authoring, I mean "What is like for an educator to actually create and assemble a tour?"
[19:31:22 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And that part can assume that the data is already all in the system and that the data map has been drawn.
[19:31:49 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Comprende
[19:31:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, focus first on making it awesome for visitors, then for making it awesome for content creators, and then finally making it awesome for the back-end staff.
[19:32:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> To be clear, this is just my thoughts. I'm sure the rest of the community will have ideas about it, too.
[19:32:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But do I think it's premature to start thinking about authoring? Not at all. (smile)
[19:33:12 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm very curious to see what we'll have by March. Go big or go home has always been my approach... (wink)
[19:33:26 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:33:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I like big vision combined with baby steps.
[19:34:08 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm just realizing, you're at work late Colin
[19:34:14 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> or are you at home
[19:34:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> lol
[19:34:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> No, I'm sticking around late to tidy up the last of the bug parade issues for Engage.
[19:35:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We're at the stage now where it's just tidy up... making sure all the code has copyright statements, that everything's named correctly, and so on.
[19:35:06 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Dedication. (smile)
[19:35:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We've got to fix this Browse issue by at least showing a progress spinner instead of the junk before the data loads.
[19:35:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So I think that'll be our last blocker.
[19:35:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm afraid I get a little lost in the bug parade emails. It'll take me a while to get into them
[19:35:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, they're pretty dense.
[19:36:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I just sent one out, and you'll notice a few themes:
[19:36:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Code Clean up
[19:36:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Preparing the files for release
[19:36:32 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> yeah... lol. I see "code" anywhere and my eyes glaze over
[19:36:35 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Creating build scripts
[19:36:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Renaming
[19:36:44 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For sure.
[19:37:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm always happy to explain what's actually going on.
[19:37:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You'll notice that developers are often so close to the code that they'll describe issues in very technical terms.
[19:37:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And that's a good thing. It lets people be precise and clear with each other while they are collaborating on tasks.
[19:37:34 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I guess more than anything I want to be more help and I see that most of the issues are either code related... or testing...
[19:37:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But the piece that's missing from some of this is the context: "what are we doing and why?" Without all the technical detail attached.
[19:38:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> That's definitely the hard part for the designers...
[19:38:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I can help with that for sure.
[19:38:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I sometimes just need to be asked. (smile)
[19:39:11 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> You've got enough on your plate then to be hand-holding clueless designers.
[19:39:13 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> (tongue)
[19:39:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> No, no. I like doing it. And you're hardly clueless!
[19:40:18 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I think if the JIRA's had a tag with
[19:40:38 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> designerable on it... just so we know it's something we can tackle
[19:40:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think we can do something like that, for sure.
[19:41:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I don't know quite how to describe it, since we want the community to be inclusive of everyone, not just designers and developers.
[19:41:25 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Maybe we need a "non-nerdy" tag. (tongue)
[19:41:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This page gives you a sense of the shape of each release for Engage:
[19:41:42 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Fluid+Engage+release+overview
[19:41:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's still very much a work in progress, and it details "Things" rather than "Activities."
[19:42:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This is an important distinction, since Things are rarely sufficient for having a holistic product.
[19:42:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> But still, you get the idea of how a release starts.
[19:42:53 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We're just at the end of one now, which is maybe why some of the context is missing.
[19:43:30 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> For the next release, "Hugues' Scenario" really gives us a bit of focus for the activities that Engage's mobile app will support.
[19:43:33 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> it goes up by .2... 0.1, 0.3....
[19:43:43 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, we're skipping version numbers.
[19:43:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> In part, I think version numbers that are smaller than 1.0 give people a sense of the quality and reliability of an application.
[19:44:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So, 0.1 says "wow, this is just a rough sketch"
[19:44:31 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And by 0.5 you think, "I see where this is going, and it is genuinely usable"
[19:44:47 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> does it go 0.6 after that?
[19:44:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> and by 1.0 it's, "Hey, this is a real product with a rich set of features"
[19:45:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> As it stands now, we're planning for an 0.5 by March.
[19:45:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Engage was always envisioned as a two-year project.
[19:45:37 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> fusion seemed to go up by 0.1... does it really matter?
[19:45:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So the year of March 2010-11 will get us from 0.5 to 1.0
[19:45:48 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Infusion had longer to grow. (wink)
[19:45:54 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> ah! (smile)
[19:46:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> My point is that we'll focus on smaller pieces of functionality, but get to a point of broad stability and usability faster.
[19:46:27 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Infusion had two years to grow. Engage needs that long, and we'll ensure that we get the funding to keep going after March on the Big Vision.
[19:46:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hence the baby steps in between.
[19:46:39 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I hope so! I love this project
[19:47:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Me too
[19:47:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It's pretty awesome, and very fun.
[19:47:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> This is the first time my Fine Art degree has actually been an asset at work. (tongue)
[19:47:33 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Haha... I know!
[19:47:53 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I know from Dale's expereince that designers and developers don't usually get along
[19:48:00 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> it's so not the case here
[19:48:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, it's a strange thing.
[19:48:34 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> maybe that's the nature of open source
[19:48:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I can't imagine not wanting to make software that is really great. And that takes an interdisciplinary team.
[19:49:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Designers, developers, people who are good at testing, people who can write. The works.
[19:49:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think most open source software is just completely designer-less. That's why Fluid is really so unusual, and arguably so necessary.
[19:50:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> And that's why I think Fluid has and will succeed
[19:50:29 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Big corporations have too many old-school engineer driving the company
[19:50:33 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> SAP's the worst!
[19:50:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> (smile)
[19:52:38 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Ok, I've got a bottle of wine waiting for me at home.
[19:52:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm gonna hit the road.
[19:52:56 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> yes, go home
[19:53:01 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> and have agreat weekend!
[19:53:03 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> It was really nice to chat, Lee_Bee. And don't hestitate to just ask if you're curious about anything on the project. I'm around, and not too busy.
[19:53:04 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> You too!
[19:53:14 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Thank you! Ciao!
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