fluid-work IRC Logs-2008-04-24

[01:56:13 EDT(-0400)] * aaronlev (n=chatzill@pD9E4DCD6.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fluid-work
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[08:31:35 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279475430.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
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[08:34:22 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> hi colinclark
[08:42:50 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac (n=team@142.150.154.105) has joined #fluid-work
[08:56:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: Hey. Sorry I missed you there. How's it going?
[08:57:04 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> hi colinclark
[08:57:15 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i got the idea about fluid yesterday
[08:57:30 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> is your long term vision that it's bigger than academia?
[08:57:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> great.
[08:58:13 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yes, certainly. We're already branching out of academia in the sense that we're helping out with other open source applications.
[08:58:40 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> is there an social networking component?
[08:59:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Not specifically, but we're always keeping an eye on social networking.
[09:00:40 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> There's a lot of excitement in it for things like online teaching. But at this point, we're mostly focussed on putting together the primitives you'd use to build an accessible and well-designed app.
[09:01:29 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> ok
[09:01:48 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> teachers need to coordinate though right?
[09:01:56 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> and co-develop curriculum
[09:02:16 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i'm just looking at different web frameworks now
[09:02:26 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> it's becoming extremely interesting
[09:02:57 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> I'm trying to understand better what Fluid adds that others aren't focusing on at this point?
[09:05:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Sorry, just catching up...
[09:06:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, social networking and collaboration are big themes in several of our communities.
[09:06:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> My primary goal with Fluid isn't to reinvent the wheel. Anything that another good toolkit does, we'll use it.
[09:06:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think there are some gaps in several places that we'd like to fill:
[09:07:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Accessibility personalization: making sure our components are flexible enough that users can customize layouts, keyboard mapping, etc. based on their individual needs.
[09:09:28 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> * Customization at implementation time: we want these components to be widely reused. For little widgets (sliders, buttons, that sort of thing) it's pretty easy to build something that's generally usable. Once you move a level up, to bigger chunks of UI real estate, you have to take context into consideration.
[09:10:16 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So that means components need to be really adjustable. At the code level, this means that they're modular enough to have their core logic--callbacks to the server, presentation logic, etc. be modifiable.
[09:10:41 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> And that we don't make huge assumptions about the DOM we bind to so that it's easy to integrate them into an existing application and customize their structure and appearance.
[09:14:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: When you get a chance, if you haven't already, can you update my jQuery Plugins documentation page to reflect the new URLs into SVN?
[09:15:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: People in the jQuery community already noticed the move and were confused, which is a good thing. Means they're interested.
[09:15:42 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> no problem, colinclark. I'm in there anyway, so I'll do it now.
[09:15:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Awesome, thanks so much.
[09:18:19 EDT(-0400)] * aaronlev catches up
[09:18:26 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> colinclark: done
[09:18:49 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Great. How's your day going so far?
[09:19:00 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> good - working on the readme for the beta
[09:19:08 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> and you?
[09:19:31 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> colinclark: i'd like to see an example of where the philosopy of flexible widgets really makes a difference for various kinds of users of different versions of the same widget
[09:19:38 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> do you have one to send me?
[09:19:49 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> or is it still too early?
[09:20:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: I'm trying to think of what we've got currently. It's probably too early, but I may have something. Let me think about it.
[09:20:30 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> ok
[09:20:42 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> but i have the general idea is that it does a great job of separating the model from the view
[09:22:01 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> That's the goal. The client-side world makes this much easier than with server-side frameworks, because there's already a built in separation between DOM and JavaScript code. Throw in jQuery as a really nice way of binding to the DOM, and it gets pretty good.
[09:28:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: I'm good. Stayed up a bit late last night prepping for the workshop.
[09:28:24 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Still haven't even gotten through my JS 101 slides yet.
[09:28:29 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark is doomed.
[09:28:34 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I noticed the time stamps on your commits
[09:29:09 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Don't worry about it - you've learned last-minute slides from the expert, remember?
[09:29:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> and do let me know if there's anything I can do to help!
[09:35:35 EDT(-0400)] * davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279310279.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[09:35:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Thanks, that's nice of you.
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[10:12:21 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> anastasiac: you were telling me something about some other tab example or something in fluid... and it fell off my radar
[10:12:26 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> (yesterday maybe)
[10:12:42 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> hm.
[10:12:50 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> BTW, i slept last night! woot woot!
[10:12:50 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Ah, right
[10:13:04 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> congratulations! I assume this is in reference to baby issues?
[10:13:16 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> yeah. yesterday my mind was a bit mushy
[10:13:34 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Regarding tabs: We used jQuery tabs for a reorderable tabs demo
[10:13:46 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> it doesn't use the accessibility plug-in, though
[10:14:05 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> oh boo. ok nevermind then
[10:14:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> it's in the sample-code/reorderer/jquery-tabs folder
[10:14:20 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> ok thanks
[10:14:42 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> did you guys notice that someone already noticed the svn change (in jquery-a11y group)
[10:15:35 EDT(-0400)] * davidb takes of his distraction badge
[10:15:39 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> off/of
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[10:45:26 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> davidb, colinclark: will fluid be sharing any widget code with jquery UI?
[10:45:47 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: I definitely hope so, yes.
[10:46:05 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> We're already sharing a11y infrastructure code (keyboard nav, helping with jARIA, etc.) with them.
[10:46:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark>
[10:48:03 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> right
[10:48:12 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i'm wondering if their widgets might as well be fluid widgets
[10:48:21 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> just a thought
[10:48:57 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Yeah, I definitely want to share any widgets or components.
[10:49:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Our next release will likely include jQuery plugins to initialize each of our existing components.
[10:50:22 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> thanks for the info
[10:50:40 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> it's nice to see
[10:51:29 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I think the biggest distinction with Fluid is that we're building stuff that is usually a bit bigger than your typical "widget," in that they are concerned with bigger chunks of UI functionality (often containing widgets). That means they have more built-in markup and behaviour.
[10:51:58 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So some things we produce might not necessarily fit into your typical widget set, but I expect in general our definition of widget will expand over time.
[10:54:22 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev, colinclark: I think it is fair to say that Fluid is not building a widget library in the common definition of widget library.
[10:54:32 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> to me they are widgets
[10:54:35 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> but maybe i don't get it
[10:54:49 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> are you more purpose and inforomation-type driven and jquery ui is more general, typical widgets?
[10:55:01 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i'm waiting for that aha moment
[10:56:08 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> colinclark: ^
[10:56:12 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: Yes, exactly. More context driven. So most of the components we're planning to build over the next year are related to managing files in a Web app.
[10:56:34 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> ok
[10:56:35 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> and Fluid looks at interaction.
[10:56:39 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Uploading files, tagging and adding metadata, sorting and organizing them in smart playlists and the like.
[10:57:18 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> So focussed on the activities that people usually want to do on the web, rather than just the primitive controls with which they accomplish them.
[10:57:20 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> well put
[10:57:21 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> so i would think some of them might actually be sublcasses of typical widgets
[10:57:33 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Or containers of, yes.
[10:57:44 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> focused on activities people want to do
[10:57:46 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i'm there
[10:57:47 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: give an example of a subclass?
[10:58:05 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> like the photo sorter is a subclass of a sorter which is a subclass if list
[10:58:07 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> of list
[10:58:12 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> i see
[10:58:30 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> so when you want to sort something else you can just subclass the sorter class
[10:58:51 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> and get the key nav and aria semantics for free, but you can override whatever you need
[10:58:52 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> yeah but we are in javascript land... so we mixin or something else.
[10:59:02 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> that's why xbl rocks
[10:59:03 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> yeah
[10:59:05 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> heh
[10:59:11 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark>
[10:59:13 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> xbl does look nice
[10:59:17 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> but anyway javascript has classes
[10:59:26 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i'm always confused by them but they exist
[10:59:32 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> here we go.
[10:59:58 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: ecmascript 4 will have a class keyword
[11:00:04 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> yeah
[11:00:07 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> future future
[11:00:24 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> you are focused on activities ... i've been thinking exactly that way lately
[11:00:27 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> right now 'classes' are murky. and depend on what toolkit you use.
[11:00:45 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: right, real world driven.
[11:00:52 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> but anyway you can still get the same thing by creating widgets that are flexible have a lot of property options
[11:01:48 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: yeah... but look into 'prototypal' inheritance. it will take a while to drop the classical class based inheritance concepts
[11:01:50 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i got it, i think
[11:01:50 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: That's definitely our approach.
[11:01:57 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i want to watch this project at least
[11:02:09 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Built up components from bits that can be configured. And pair them up with markup that is easily configurable.
[11:02:10 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: cool!
[11:02:36 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Most people, when they create UIs, assume they "own" the markup. That makes it really hard to change it or customize it for your own needs.
[11:03:14 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> you mean they design by pixel?
[11:03:28 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> but if you bring in a mashup component you're in trouble
[11:03:37 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> or if there are options for making a different view
[11:03:39 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> for a11y
[11:03:54 EDT(-0400)] <aaronlev> i just have a hard time giving up xbl or doing things via inheritance in general
[11:04:07 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> aaronlev: you can still do inheritance
[11:04:54 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> colinclark: are you covering this stuff in your workshop next week?
[11:05:35 EDT(-0400)] * davidb goes 'with baby' for the next hour
[11:06:16 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> colinclark: i wanted to catch you before i forget. ask paul, when you are ready, to add you to the googlecode jquery as a member. he added me this morning
[11:07:20 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon>
[11:07:27 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> hi Bosmon
[11:07:36 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Colin, if I make a blog, what kind of markup can I use?
[11:07:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I am preparing to write up my "How Long, Oh Lord" experiences
[11:07:46 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Hi David
[11:08:12 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> colinclark is wicked busy for the next few days
[11:09:08 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark is catching up.
[11:09:20 EDT(-0400)] * colinclark is doomed.
[11:09:53 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> colinclark: you can always ad lib if you need to.
[11:10:01 EDT(-0400)]

[11:10:10 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Urk
[11:10:15 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Colin cloned by a Dojo library
[11:10:19 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> phiggins: that's scary
[11:10:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> It doesn't bear thinking about
[11:10:47 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> safe object copy. nothing bad will happen to colinclark
[11:10:50 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins>
[11:11:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I feel sure this operation will interfere with his depth
[11:11:14 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> aaronlev: Sometimes design by pixel is a problem. In other cases, developers assume that the structure of the DOM is fixed. But often to add additional customization, you might want to change containment hierarchies and the like in the DOM. Hard to do if you write code assuming a certain DOM structure. So we work hard to avoid that.
[11:11:33 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> phiggins: is there a list of sites using dijit 'in the wild' somewhere? aaronlev was asking yesterday
[11:11:49 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> dtk.org/spotlight
[11:11:51 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> davidb: I'm covering much of these ideas in the workshop on Sunday. I am working on slides now that describe how to apply the Fluid approach in your own code.
[11:11:51 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> ?
[11:11:59 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> those are "the big ones" "who've contact me"
[11:12:37 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: In the blog, you should be safe with just about any markup.
[11:12:59 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Simon, for example, built some tables in his blog post about tabindex behaviour across browsers.
[11:13:12 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Thanks Colin
[11:13:20 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac or michelled can hook you up with a login and password if I haven't already done so.
[11:13:20 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> If I want to include images, what is the "reasonable" way of doing this?
[11:13:21 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> phiggins: ok
[11:13:33 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> hehe just started writing back over there
[11:13:38 EDT(-0400)] <phiggins> stay put!
[11:13:45 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: I think so, but I haven't actually done so. Much to Githens' chagrin.
[11:14:07 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> He rightfully insisted that we needed more blog posts with screenshots and sample code. Which I will do once this workshop is over.
[11:14:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> glarg
[11:15:44 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, images are definitely possible in the blog: http://fluidproject.org/blog/2007/05/08/launching-the-fluid-project/
[11:17:06 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Well, to be sure
[11:17:21 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> My question was mainly about whether there was some "reasonable" place they would be hosted from
[11:17:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> But it seems in this case you host them from flickr
[11:18:08 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Bosmon: I haven't checked if our wordpress instance allows you to upload and link to files. Worth a look.
[11:22:45 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> AC - these CSS styles, should I just write them into the markup for my posting itself?
[11:22:53 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I'm not quite sure what the "ingest" procedure is...
[11:41:06 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, I don't know what the process is for styles not part of the default look. I'm sure if you wrote custom styles into your post, it would work.
[12:33:55 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> anastasiac: jaria is now in jquery's repos...
[12:33:55 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> http://code.google.com/p/jqueryjs/source/browse/trunk/plugins/jARIA/jARIA.js
[12:34:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> excellent! thanks for the heads-up, davidb
[12:34:22 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> welcome
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[13:42:52 EDT(-0400)] <davidb_> anastasiac: are you guys going to treat jaria as an external
[13:42:53 EDT(-0400)] <davidb_> ?
[13:43:17 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I'm not sure what "treat as an external" means to you...
[13:43:27 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> that makes two of us
[13:43:33 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> for the build
[13:43:41 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> packaging
[13:43:52 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> our distribution will include a copy of jaria
[13:44:06 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> anastasiac: taken from the Fluid svn repos?
[13:44:12 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> at the moment, yes
[13:44:21 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> anastasiac: and for the near future right?
[13:45:20 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> yes, that will be the case for the near future
[13:56:54 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> ok thnx
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[15:37:55 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> have a nice weekend all
[15:38:08 EDT(-0400)] <davidb> oh wait thursday
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