fluid-work IRC Logs-2008-12-09

[08:30:08 EST(-0500)] * Justin_o (n=Justin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[08:56:16 EST(-0500)] * jessm (n=Jess@c-24-34-214-137.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[09:00:51 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279621226.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[09:02:44 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has joined #fluid-work
[09:03:01 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Morning
[09:09:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Everett: Morning. I'm super overdue to send you an email with some links. I have been swamped getting ready for the Infusion 0.6 release, but I haven't forgotten.
[09:10:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How are things going with you?
[09:11:10 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Quite well. I am currently installing Ubuntu 8.04 in Virtualbox on a WinXP host. I tried it with VMWare but responsiveness of Orca was poor at best. This seems like it will work really well. Once I make sure it works I'm going to install OpenSOlaris and use it to test ARIA widgets all day.
[09:11:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Fantastic!
[09:11:39 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Accessible installers are great (ahem Microsoft).
[09:12:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll send you a couple of links to Fluid components real quick, in case you find time to check them out.
[09:13:28 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, via e-mail please.
[09:13:54 EST(-0500)] <Everett> When you guys test do you use the latest nightly of FF 3.1?
[09:15:06 EST(-0500)] * Bosmon (n=Antranig@ginger.caret.cam.ac.uk) has joined #fluid-work
[09:15:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We haven't yet started testing on FF 3.1, no. We tend to wait for the betas to bake a little bit, and then switch over then.
[09:15:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What on earth are you doing up....
[09:15:22 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Have you done any testing with FF 3.1 yet?
[09:15:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: It's 9 am!
[09:16:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Though I am still making coffee.
[09:16:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> "Using AJAX to develop sites, I've run into problems using IE 6.0 RTM
[09:16:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> releases. For some strange reason, the GDR releases of IE don't exhibit the
[09:16:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> same crash, Firefox and others work just fine of course.
[09:16:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Here's the burning question, how do we change IE from a RTM to a GDR
[09:16:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> version?"
[09:16:37 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: in regards to accessibility testing mostly it has been using IE, only a bit in FF, can't remember off hand how much was in FF2 vs FF3
[09:17:21 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: In the end, our most fruitful testing for AT support will be on Firefox, since IE doesn't have any support for ARIA yet.
[09:17:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: I read that page too... did you happen to take a snapshot of your vm
[09:17:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> NO I DID NOT!
[09:17:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> IT IS GONE FOREVER!
[09:17:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: What is this reference?
[09:17:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I never dreamed anything like this could happen
[09:17:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just some bloody page...
[09:18:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Look at my comment on FLUID-1540
[09:18:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I installed VWD 2008 on my virtual machine
[09:18:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And it somehow "bumped" the IE6 on the machine to some other kind of IE6 which no longer exhibits the problem
[09:19:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://blogs.conchango.com/markwilson/archive/2005/07/11/1788.aspx
[09:19:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This message suggests the actual version string itself may be irrelevant
[09:19:53 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The "function" of IE can simply change through applied patches....
[09:20:03 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: this is something I'm hoping to do more of in the coming year
[09:20:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool.
[09:20:13 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sorry for the late reply... i've been buried
[09:20:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> under lots of text
[09:20:55 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm sorry to say I don't feel it a very high priority to throw very many more resources at this ridiculous issue
[09:20:57 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[09:21:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bigger fish to fry, I agree.
[09:22:48 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I leave it on the bug parade, in case you guys get through all of the other bugs this week and need something else to do
[09:22:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ho ho
[09:23:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That bug by itself could take as long as a week
[09:23:31 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> really... it's definitely not worth spending a week on
[09:24:13 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: how is looking for pager and the updates to inline edit
[09:24:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Should be fine
[09:24:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I need to deal with "selectable" first
[09:24:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That is a blocker of blockers
[09:24:59 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ah yes... that one is important
[09:28:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> IE6 users are still hovering around 20% of the market....
[09:28:49 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> That's still a lot, do you know what FF is at?
[09:29:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> FF is roughly the same
[09:29:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Counting all versions
[09:29:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> IE7 has nearly 50% of the market
[09:29:47 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Does fluid have a grid control that would allow for col1 to have a label and col2 / col3 to have a checkbox?
[09:30:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everett - yes
[09:30:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The renderer will do this
[09:30:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Unfortunately we have not had time to write samples for it yet
[09:30:14 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: thanks for the info...
[09:30:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> After 0.6 is out the door, we will concentrate on this
[09:31:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Opera still around a miserable 1%
[09:31:33 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: thanks, just curious. Theoretically could there be collapsable rows?
[09:31:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[09:31:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> You can do what you want
[09:31:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The renderer will deal with any HTML/JS combination you throw at it
[09:32:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Chrome has already equalled Opera's userbase...
[09:32:19 EST(-0500)] <Everett> is there a url with useful information I could read about that?
[09:32:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[09:32:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Fluid+Renderer
[09:32:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It has rotted a little
[09:32:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But you can read it for a general flavour of what is possible
[09:32:59 EST(-0500)] <Everett> ok, thanks.
[09:32:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Everett: One point to clarify about this. We have specifically not created a formalized grid component at all.
[09:33:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Anastasia has been working on some samples
[09:33:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But they are not yet written up
[09:33:21 EST(-0500)] <Everett> colin: understandable as the purpose of a grid is flexibility.
[09:33:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The majority of "hard info" about what the renderer does right now is sitting in the test cases....
[09:33:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Exactly. We've found that every attempt to do this results in a bloated, awkward, and hard to customize thing.
[09:34:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Rather, we've tried to address some of the data binding challenges inherent in the problem, and then allow the user to build their own markup and so on to build their own grid or other type of widget.
[09:34:12 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Is there anything partly complete that I may be able to peek at next week when I'm in TO? Or, is it not quite that far yet?
[09:34:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Oh, there is plenty to peek at
[09:34:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[09:34:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: The baseball table example is close, isn't it?
[09:34:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> There is also the pager sample I just wrote
[09:34:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Ah, yes.
[09:34:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> By next week, there may even be a CLE-12 implementation
[09:34:53 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Are you guys free at all on Mon - Tue (Dec 15 - 16)?
[09:35:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I will be around... here that is
[09:35:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[09:35:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon lives in Cambridge, UK.
[09:35:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But we can always bring him in over skype to chat with us.
[09:35:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm free either of those days, Everett.
[09:36:14 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, I'll get finalization (haha) of my meeting times later this week and perhaps we can coordinate something.
[09:44:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Everett: Sounds great.
[09:46:34 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Colin: thanks, talk to you later.
[09:46:37 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has left #fluid-work
[09:49:09 EST(-0500)] * fj4000 (n=Jacob@142.150.154.106) has joined #fluid-work
[09:50:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> fj4000 is back!
[09:50:34 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> hey hey
[09:51:16 EST(-0500)] * fj4000 is thinking expired tuna + long subway ride dont mix
[09:51:17 EST(-0500)] * clown (n=clown@guiseppi.atrc.utoronto.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[10:06:25 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac (n=team@142.150.154.160) has joined #fluid-work
[10:06:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> fj4000: eeeww
[10:06:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You ok?
[10:07:24 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> yeah.....lets just say, I will be thinking twice before I ever eat tuna I dont make myself
[10:10:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> !!!??!?!!
[10:15:19 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@bas1-toronto09-1279621226.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fluid-work
[10:19:02 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark:
[10:19:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We have an interesting "type" issue
[10:19:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In "forcing" every bridged function to return "this", we may be going a bridge too far....
[10:24:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: eek
[10:24:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yes
[10:24:32 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I have made a small update to the commit policy during code freeze and bug parade
[10:24:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Coding+and+Commit+Standards
[10:24:59 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> basically when code is reviewed the result needs to be indicated on the jira
[10:26:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK
[10:26:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What shall we do?
[10:26:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Ok, good to know.
[10:26:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example - the function formerly known as "tabindex"
[10:26:28 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do we follow the letter of the law?
[10:26:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And insist that no genuine JQuery UI plugin can return an integer?
[10:26:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> no, that's ridiculous
[10:26:53 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Is it?
[10:26:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yes!
[10:27:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We have "Guidelines"!
[10:27:05 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> i mean, think about methods like .attr()
[10:27:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK
[10:27:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> in jQuery
[10:27:12 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[10:27:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The question is, how do we then distinguish these methods?
[10:27:42 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We could say, that anything that returns a primitive type, will continue to return a primitive type
[10:28:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I suppose that's a reasonable start...
[10:28:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I suspect you'll find other exceptions to the rule.
[10:28:28 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, then we will struggle
[10:28:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Try it in the keyboard plugin first.
[10:28:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[10:28:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You will probably succeed there.
[10:28:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[10:28:55 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And that's all we really need for now.
[10:29:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Today is going to be a rough day for me with grant proposal writing... so you will see me disappear a lot.
[10:29:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[10:29:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which one are you writing today?
[10:29:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Engagement.
[10:30:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> cool
[10:30:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It's very exciting, yes.
[10:30:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Will we get to detect all sorts of circular and elliptical bar-codes?
[10:30:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Possibly, yes.
[10:30:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Our colleague Jorge and his team have also been working on some fairly compelling wifi-based positioning.
[10:31:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It may well be suitable as well. He thinks it only requires about 3 routers in a space to get sufficient resolution.
[10:31:22 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> http://scampus.blogspot.com/
[10:32:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Anyway, I'm going to hop on the subway and get into work. I was going to work at home but would rather be in the office, close to the grant frenzy.
[10:54:12 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> colinclark got a q for u
[10:54:24 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> dang
[10:54:34 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> just missed him.....by 22 mins
[10:55:01 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> Bosmon, can I throw a puzzle your way?
[10:55:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> oh yes
[10:55:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> As if I don't have enough
[10:55:45 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> its regarding that.locate....
[10:55:48 EST(-0500)] <fj4000>
[10:56:03 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> so in UI Options, I need to fix bug 1925
[10:56:32 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> scoping the preview window to an iframe works well, BUT
[10:56:52 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> now I need to modify the selector set that deals with managing the preview window
[10:57:43 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> what I see in the defaults is simple a selector ".preview", but I need to get that.locate to find ".preview" within the iframe
[10:58:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well....
[10:58:10 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> so I thought I could change the default to $('iframe').contents().find('.preview')
[10:58:29 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> but, this isnt flexible, in that if there is no/multiple iframes, it blows up
[10:58:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I see
[10:58:55 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> so, how would you recommend the default selectors look when it comes to this?
[10:58:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Why isn't the "container" for the component already correctly localised inside the iframe?
[10:59:51 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> im not sure I understand what you mean by localised....it is scoped within the component, yes
[10:59:53 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> but
[11:00:11 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> there isnt any method in that.locate to normalize iframe content
[11:00:18 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> at least I didnt see any
[11:00:21 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> so im not sure
[11:00:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What?
[11:00:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I said the opposite
[11:00:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Why isn't the container, to which this DOM binder is bound, inside the right iframe?
[11:01:21 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> it shouldnt be in the iframe...only a peice of the component needs to be in an iframe
[11:01:31 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> just the real-time preview part
[11:01:36 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> not the options parts
[11:02:24 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> basically, is it possible now to use that.locate to pluck nodes from an iframe?
[11:02:42 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> or is that not part of its capabilities right now?
[11:03:15 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> !?!?!?!
[11:03:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well ok, then you can pass the "scoping component" as the 2nd argument to "locate"
[11:03:50 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> ok, so for an iframe, would the scope looke like
[11:03:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That scoping component can be some separately provided configuration to the component
[11:03:56 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> $('iframe').contents() ?
[11:04:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am not sure, I have never searched for things across iframes
[11:04:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It is the sort of thing Justin_o might know though
[11:04:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> He had to do a lot of frames-based stuff for the doh.robot
[11:04:44 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> yes, he showed me how jQuery does it
[11:04:58 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> $('iframe').contents().find('body.preview').doWhatever()
[11:05:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[11:05:23 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has joined #fluid-work
[11:05:28 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Then yes, it looks like the correct node will be $('iframe').contents() as you say
[11:05:38 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Does someone have a second to discuss expected behaviour for inline edit?
[11:05:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi Everett, yes
[11:07:09 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: 1. Using JAWS 10. 2. Press enter on button 3. find edit control and enter forms mode. 4. make changes to text and press enter. 5. press enter on button again to commit changes.
[11:08:32 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I think my two concerns with this are: 1. most users will be confused by this being announced as a button. 2. Having to find the button again to commit changes seems non-intuitive, however taking into consideration multi-line edits there may not be a better way.
[11:09:13 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Could the text on the button change to "Save changes" or something more intuitive once the edit control has been activated?
[11:21:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Sorry, I lost attention on this window
[11:22:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I have to say I am using a client that doesn't notify me of IRC things, so if I seem to be somnolent you should just PM me
[11:22:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I will see that
[11:22:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi Everett - the button is not actually part of the InlineEdit control itself at all
[11:22:42 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But just part of that particular sample
[11:22:51 EST(-0500)] * colinclark (n=colin@142.150.154.101) has joined #fluid-work
[11:23:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If you can come up with something you think is more appropriate, it would be enthusiastically accepted
[11:29:02 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Is the Bosmon: is the caret placed in that example where a sighted user clicks?
[11:36:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Can you be more specific?
[11:37:21 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: If the words "the brown dog" are editable and a user clicks on the first "n" will the caret be placed in the edit control at the beginning of the text, or before the n?
[11:38:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah
[11:38:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The position of the caret is part of the options to the InlineEdit instance
[11:38:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But we do not support moving to the position of the target character
[11:39:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Only at either the start or the end of the field
[11:39:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And believe me, even that was quite trouble enough to implement
[11:39:59 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: Ok, just curious.
[11:40:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everett: In terms of the "button to commit", the button really only does appear in the rich text versions as you say
[11:40:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The "simple field" inline-edits will generally "commit on blur"
[11:40:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think
[11:40:54 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: should focus automatically be placed on the edit field when entering edit mode?
[11:41:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, it should
[11:41:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> At least, to the best of my knowledge
[11:41:48 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, quick Q: should the stuff in ...sample-code/pager/sakai-site-setting actually do anything?
[11:42:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am but a humble developer, and any opinions or recommendations you would have would be happily taken in
[11:42:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> anastasiac: Yes, that is broken
[11:42:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And I guess will remain so for the release, I guess we should just "back it out" or hide it somehow
[11:42:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps I can take it away into a branch
[11:42:54 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, good to know. Maybe Justin_o can make the call as to whether or not to move it to a branch
[11:43:03 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> but I see little use to a sample that doesn't work
[11:43:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[11:43:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Even to assemble that set of broken files was no little effort
[11:43:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon, anastasiac: I was just going to ask about that
[11:43:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But yes, it should clearly "go away"
[11:43:38 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> does this mean that pager will not be updated in time for the release
[11:43:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think there is little chance I can make it work for the release
[11:43:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, the other example does work
[11:43:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And so do the test cases
[11:43:56 EST(-0500)] <Everett> To the best of anyones knowledge are there any other AT dependent individuals testing fluid?
[11:44:16 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> So if we possibly can, I would be happy if we could "review" the current state of it, to see if we consider it release-worthy
[11:44:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It has "at least" the functionality that it did for 0.5
[11:44:27 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Everett: "dependent", no, but Justin_o does to AT testing
[11:44:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everett: No specific individuals that I am aware of
[11:44:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But sometimes the components are run by Mike Elledge, who i believe has access to some such users
[11:45:15 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> yes - I'm not sure if Mike tests using accepted protocols or actual users, though
[11:45:21 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> !!!
[11:45:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I was sure he had some actual users
[11:45:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If not accepted protocols
[11:45:37 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Everett, we're delighted to have your feedback and info on your experiences with the components
[11:45:54 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Everett: i try to do some AT testing, not nearly as much as I would like. I am actually hoping to see an AT dependent user in action to gain a better understanding of how our strategies of using the AT may differ
[11:46:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Heads-up to all, who weren't in the channel yesterday
[11:46:42 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Justin: where ar you located?
[11:46:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Our set of JQuery UI plugins, being selectable, tabindex, and activatable, are being completely blasted, probably as of today, and will be 100% API incompatible
[11:46:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> "boo"
[11:47:04 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Everett: I'm in Toronto in the fluid room
[11:47:28 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, so apparently I was using J9 before. So, with J10 here is the trick with the inline edit, which otherwise is pretty good.
[11:47:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The upside is that this makes way for a beatific new approach whereby the entirety of Fluid becomes available for invocation in JQuery UI plugin style automatically, where appropriate
[11:47:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And the JQuery UI plugin code itself is being "returned" to appearing in an overtly "that-ist" form, in line with the rest of the framework
[11:47:54 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Justin: perhaps I can play with some things Mon-Tue if you're around.
[11:48:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Everett - what is J9 and 10?
[11:48:56 EST(-0500)] * Topic is 'fluid.thatistBridge = function (name, peer)' set by Bosmon on 2008-12-09 11:48:56 EST(-0500)
[11:49:06 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Inline edit: 1. activate editable text by pressing enter. 2. Focus is moved to edit control and changes can be made. 3. pressing enter will save changes. 4. there appears to still be an edit control detected by JAWS that is empty and which cannot be navigated away from with auto-forms mode.
[11:49:19 EST(-0500)] <Everett> JAWS9 / 10
[11:49:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, thanks
[11:50:05 EST(-0500)] <Everett> This happens for all examples that I've tested (examples 1 & 2).
[11:50:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, that is interesting
[11:50:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The control has a CSS hidden style
[11:50:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which would be very unfortunate if it is not enough to cause it to become invisible to JAWS....
[11:51:06 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Knowing very little about ARIA currently... is there not a way to set the editable texts role to something other than button, perhaps "Editable"?
[11:51:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Everett: I would definitely like to meet with you those days. I'm going to be doing acceptance testing for our release and your input would be helpful
[11:51:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The text itself's role is "button"??!
[11:51:46 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Bosmon: the control is not visible to JAWS before I activate the edit, only after I commit the changes by pressing enter inside the edit field.
[11:51:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Outrageous
[11:52:44 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Bosmon: when I navigate to the editable text it is identified as "button"
[11:52:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Rotten
[11:52:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon, Everett: are you referring to the rich text inline edit or all variants of it
[11:52:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Throw tomatoes
[11:53:53 EST(-0500)] <Everett> http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/fluid-components/html/InlineEdit.html example 1 is what I'm testing specifically.
[11:54:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ah that's interesting...
[11:54:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah
[11:54:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Let me see what is happening in the DOM there...
[11:54:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> do you have the same experience hererhttp://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/sample-code/inline-edit/announcements/announcements.html
[11:54:53 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sorry... i ruined the link
[11:54:55 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/sample-code/inline-edit/announcements/announcements.html
[11:55:00 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> try that one
[11:55:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, all I see in the DOM is the <input> sitting inside the hidden span
[11:55:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps JAWS is somehow "caching" the visibility of it
[11:56:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Having once seen it, it refuses to believe it has gone...
[11:56:22 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, Everett: regarding the role of button: the ARIA spec has a certain number of roles to choose from
[11:56:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The state of the DOM is essentially identical to when the edit begins
[11:56:38 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> the use of button was to signify that the item is actionable
[11:56:44 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> clearly, though, this doesn't make sense to you
[11:56:57 EST(-0500)] <Everett> So, a better description: 1. The page loads. 2. I navigate to the first example. 3. when JAWS reads the editable text it appends the word "Button" (I assume this is the role). 4. I press enter and am placed in the edit control and can make changes. 5. Pressing enter commits the changes. 6. there is now the modified text and a edit control beneath it that has no content and which I cannot navigate out of using
[11:56:59 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> so we should at least investigate what other options might make sense
[11:57:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I wonder how we can make the "phantom edit control" go away
[11:57:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps JAWS will be mollified if we belt-and-braces set the hidden style on the input specifically, as well as its container
[11:57:41 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I can get out of forms mode using JAWSKey + semicolon, but if I navigate back to it using up / down arrow it sticks me back in there
[11:57:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But all the same, I feel it is being rather unfair
[11:58:26 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> this may have to do with a bug that places a caret on the screen when you push the arrow up or down... i'll see if I can find it
[11:59:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-1641
[11:59:46 EST(-0500)] * ecochran (n=ecochran@dhcp-169-229-212-44.LIPS.Berkeley.EDU) has joined #fluid-work
[11:59:49 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, if I refresh the window (Ins + Escape) the mystery edit control disappears.
[11:59:56 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> JAWS is a meanie!
[12:00:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: do you think that may have any relation to the errors
[12:00:26 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> fluid-1641 that is
[12:00:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> No, I don't really
[12:00:43 EST(-0500)] <Everett> So, I think JAWS is caching the control as being there and not realizing that it has disappeared.
[12:00:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The sheer existence of the phantom control is unconnected with any particular keystrokes
[12:01:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In that it is seen to exist, before Everett hits any arrow keys
[12:01:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In an attempt to dispel it
[12:01:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The only thing I can think of is to set display: none on the input control it self as part of the "hide" operation
[12:01:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We can try to make a special "souped-up" version for Everett to test
[12:01:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although I'm not quite sure how to get it to him
[12:02:13 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Has anyone else tested this widget with JAWS10?
[12:02:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: that's good, i was afraid i'd have to add it to the bug parade
[12:03:11 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I'm loading Ubuntu with Orca 2.2x... to test. I forget which version is loaded.
[12:05:55 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, I have to rant again... this virtualbox thing is great!
[12:06:01 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: are you around for some quick uploader questions
[12:06:16 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> yes
[12:06:17 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> shoot
[12:06:28 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: ^
[12:07:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> virtualbox?
[12:07:04 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I just wanted to check in on the state of the uploader (i.e. differentiate what will be in the 0.6 release vs 0.8)
[12:07:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Something like VMWare?
[12:07:12 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I'm updating my test plans
[12:07:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: ^
[12:07:59 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: well... things are looking pretty good. How specific do you want me to be?
[12:08:05 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> We won't have a dialog example
[12:08:20 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I'm assuming that the uploader is in release state as is, only needing the bug fixes
[12:08:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> no more features to be added
[12:08:42 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> is that what your view is as well
[12:09:28 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK
[12:09:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am basically going through the entire codebase now, updating it for FLUID-1616
[12:09:46 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I'm going to be making some tweaks to which buttons display at what points in the workflow as part of the work on 1936 (yes, stretching the "BUG" definition a bit
[12:09:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> So watch out
[12:10:07 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> trying to match up with the workflow that Daphne and Erin are working on
[12:10:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: yes, this is what I was wondering about
[12:10:24 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I will not be adding the error or feedback stuff that is currently being designed
[12:10:42 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ecochran: I think you were not here when I gave the headsup that we are unfortunately having to make a 100% change in the API of keyboard-a11y
[12:10:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Every user of it will need to be updated for the release....
[12:10:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> "glarg"
[12:11:13 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: grumph!
[12:11:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Exactly
[12:11:29 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> got docs?
[12:11:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> None!
[12:11:53 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> if I read the transcript will I "get" it?
[12:11:57 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: like vmware, but works better, at least for responsiveness of Orca.
[12:12:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Not sure
[12:12:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The bottom line is, we are moving in line with the latest recommendations for JQuery UI plugins
[12:12:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> As well as buying permanent insurance against people "nicking" our namespace again
[12:12:38 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: can you or someone else write up a short description of what needs to change
[12:12:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:12:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We should have full docs ASAP
[12:12:56 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although I'm not sure which has higher priority....
[12:12:56 EST(-0500)] <jessm> ecochran: JQuery started using selectable
[12:12:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: are the buttons as simple as a name change or are they actually different buttons
[12:12:59 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> oh, I caught a little of this yesterday... funny conversation
[12:13:02 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://docs.jquery.com/UI/Guidelines
[12:13:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> These are the "Guidelines"
[12:13:18 EST(-0500)] <jessm> Bosmon: which are your two that are competing for priority?
[12:13:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I have hit upon a "cunning approach" whereby we can make our entire codebase satisfy them automatically
[12:13:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> jessm: Getting all of the codebase updated and the test cases passing again, and writing documentation explaining what the new API is
[12:13:57 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: not completely sure yet. Are you getting crazy enough that you'd prefer if I backed off any big changes? Not that any of these changes are very big
[12:14:16 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: I could keep it as simple as just getting the damn Upload button to work again after pause
[12:14:26 EST(-0500)] <jessm> Bosmon: i think you've got the order right in that message ^
[12:15:08 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: if you can give me a good example, I'm happy to update the Uploader code and examples and the Inline Edit Section Info example
[12:15:23 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: that's what i'm thinking for now... if we have time later we may be able to add the others. I want to make sure that the current bugs are fixed and that I'll have time to properly test the features
[12:16:11 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: I'm working the priorities in Bug Parade first and foremost
[12:16:27 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I'll fix that Upload button and then call 1936 done
[12:16:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ecochran:
[12:16:41 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://pastebin.com/me4be459
[12:16:51 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Here is the "current" version of keyboard-a116-tests.js
[12:17:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> You can see the new invocation style of most of the methods there
[12:17:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We essentially have boiled everything down to one, gigantic, plugin, named "fluid"
[12:17:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which in effect exposes our entire framework
[12:17:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The first argument is a string, the name of the thing you want to invoke - which must accept a JQueryable as the first argument
[12:18:15 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> OK, I think that I have it
[12:18:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The second argument is either the first target argument, or a list of arguments if it takes several arguments
[12:18:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Or nothing
[12:19:18 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> sorry, "first target argument"?
[12:19:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Another important change is that all the things which used to be accessible under $.a11y are now under fluid.a11y
[12:19:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> All of those constants for keycodes and directions, etc.
[12:19:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> To ensure noone ever nicks stuff off us again
[12:19:56 EST(-0500)]

[12:19:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, for example in this call
[12:20:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> "selectable" used to be a top-level "plugin" which took one argument
[12:20:18 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> right
[12:20:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This argument is now the 2nd argument to the call
[12:20:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If it took several arguments, that 2nd argument becomes an array
[12:20:44 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> cool
[12:20:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This is essentially exactly "what the doctor ordered"
[12:21:15 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And interestingly, under the covers, our code remains 100% "that-ist"
[12:21:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Note that some of the names have become reorganised, to make the logical grouping a bit more explicit
[12:21:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example menu.container.fluid("selectable.selectNext");
[12:21:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This used to be a top-level thing called "selectNext"
[12:23:17 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: it's definitely going to take a little getting used to
[12:23:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:23:41 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Especially since it is a solution which we dismissed immediately, and almost perpetually, as "visually disgusting"
[12:23:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[12:23:56 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> it reads very oddly, but I know that you and Colin put a lot of thought into that
[12:24:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But unfortunately after endless brain-bashing, it seems there is really no alternative
[12:24:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And it is essentially what is recommended by the JQuery UI guidlines
[12:24:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> All of their plugins use this weird-ass "string as function name" idiom
[12:24:59 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Ok, for the inline edit what about using role = textbox and then setting the state before it is activated to "readonly"?
[12:25:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> dialog, sortable, etc.
[12:25:47 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: "weird-ass" is a very good word for it
[12:26:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> $().sortable("destroy") etc.
[12:26:38 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: sorry I missed your comment to me, but thanks
[12:26:42 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac is going to commit the code she's working on and then take a close look at what Bosmon has been chatting about, because she hasn't been paying attention
[12:28:07 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: I think that it ruins the "semantics" of the language... quoted things don't feel like verbs anymore... or weird verbs... like you need to quote them cause they don't mean what they mean anymore, ya "know what I mean"?
[12:28:26 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> I like thing.action()
[12:28:42 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> thing.action(options);
[12:28:53 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> so "glarg" but we'll live and be stronger for it
[12:29:59 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: is this all checked in now?
[12:30:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ecochran: Note one important thing though, that you don't need to use the JQuery UI plugin style if you don't want to
[12:30:16 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> For example, here are some lines from the reorderer?
[12:30:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> :
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> thatReorderer.container.selectable({
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> selectableElements: selectables,
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> selectablesTabindex: thatReorderer.options.selectablesTabindex,
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> direction: null
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> });
[12:30:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> }
[12:30:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> thatReorderer.selectableContext = thatReorderer.container.getSelectableContext();
[12:30:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[12:30:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It used to read like this
[12:30:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> thatReorderer.selectableContext = fluid.selectable(thatReorderer.container, {
[12:30:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> selectableElements: selectables,
[12:30:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> selectablesTabindex: thatReorderer.options.selectablesTabindex,
[12:30:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> direction: null
[12:30:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> });
[12:30:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It now reads like this
[12:31:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> So everything that "used" to be "just" a JQuery UI plugin, is now also a perfectly normal "that-ist" Fluid framework element
[12:31:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Not checked in yet, I am just making sure that everything is up to date that is "in my park"
[12:32:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm not quite sure what to do
[12:32:55 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> perhaps I should check in the core fixes, so people have something to test against
[12:32:57 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: so when would it be acceptable to use this form and not the other?
[12:33:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ecochran: I guess you can just consult your taste
[12:33:15 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If you are in a JQuery UI frame of mind, you can use form 1
[12:33:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Whereas if you are a dyed-in-the-wool Fluidite, you can use form 2
[12:34:05 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: I prefer the term Fluidian
[12:34:42 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[12:36:52 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I stepped away for a moment: Is it possible to use role="textarea" and state="readonly" for the inline edit?
[12:37:31 EST(-0500)] <Everett> readonly before the user starts editing of course.
[12:38:06 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: I think that we need to take this hit ASAP... but that should be a group decision (one ultimately sanctioned by Colin and Justin_o)
[12:38:22 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Also, are there multi-line inline edits and if so, what action commits the changes?
[12:39:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: sorry i think i missed something. what change are you referring to
[12:39:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:39:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Colin has approved the overall plan
[12:39:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But the specific code will need to be looked over
[12:39:32 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Justin_o: keyboard plugin syntax
[12:39:53 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: does this impact anything else?
[12:40:03 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran: oh okay, yes it think there's been a bunch of talk on it in the channel the last couple of days
[12:45:25 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ecochran: Well, it impacts more than half of our components and samples
[12:45:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Anything else you were thinking of?
[12:46:24 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: specifically if we are only changing the syntax for keyboard a11y or if we're changing the syntax for anything else based on this pattern?
[12:47:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just the contents of that file
[12:47:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Those things we have imagined in the past primarily as "contributable JQuery UI plugins"
[12:48:12 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which of course we still do, the file is just as self-contained as it always was
[12:52:10 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> Bosmon: that's what I thought but I didn't want any surprises... and I'm sure that Justin_o doesn't want any either. :-p
[12:52:33 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes surprises scare me
[12:52:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes well
[12:52:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Luckily we are doing this "early in the week"
[12:53:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> As soon as I looked at your Bug Parade list, I knew we were in for a "surprise"
[12:53:36 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has joined #fluid-work
[12:53:59 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: there are some tricky ones on the bug parade this time, glad you guys are up to the challenge
[12:54:04 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Can someone let me know if they have a moment to discuss proposals to change the role of inline edit?
[12:59:48 EST(-0500)] <jessm> Everett: in case no one offers themselves up, you know about the fluid-work mailing list, right? if you have some broad inline edit recommendations, that might be a good place for them. we're a week away from a release so this crowd is in a froth – but your feedback would be huge.
[13:04:15 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Jess: Thanks, I was hoping to avoid another mailing list. Perhaps I'll save my feedback for next week.
[13:04:56 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Jess: could someone give me a brief explanation of expected behaviour / how to use the reorder examples?
[13:05:59 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Particularly example 2 at http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/fluid-components/html/Reorderer.html
[13:09:21 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi Everett
[13:09:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> For all of these samples, it should be possible to use the TAB key to move focus to the managed elements
[13:09:48 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And then to use (on Windows) CTRL + arrow keys to cause them to be dragged around
[13:10:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And on Apple I believe the Apple key takes this role
[13:10:28 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Once focus has been tabbed onto the "managed set", it should also be possible to use the bare arrow keys to navigate geometrically around the set
[13:10:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This is most useful in the grid set where they have a 2-d layout which permits the arrow keys to give quicker access to an element than the linear tab order
[13:11:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK Justin_o: I have got all the test cases working, and all the samples that I can lay my hands on
[13:11:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am thinking I would commit this now
[13:13:07 EST(-0500)] <jessm> Bosmon: we're standing – all will return shortly
[13:13:12 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> urk
[13:15:55 EST(-0500)] * phiggins (n=dante@c-68-34-199-67.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has joined #fluid-work
[13:18:06 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: nope. 1. turned virtual PC cursor off. 2. tabbed into the tablist for exp. 2. 3. control + left / right arrow only states tab but nothing changes.
[13:20:14 EST(-0500)] <Everett> bosmon: I think this will be the one I will play with in Tornot next week. I think debugging the user experience with a screen-reader will be more fruitful in person with Justin or Colin.
[13:21:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Everett: that sounds good
[13:21:06 EST(-0500)] <jessm> Everett: truly – that will be great and those two should have "ample" time next week to have a look
[13:21:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> also just to clarify on apple it is still the ctrl key for keyboard drag and drop
[13:21:45 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: sure i'll test yours and anastasiac's commits then
[13:22:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Cool
[13:22:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Here goes
[13:22:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: would you also be able to comment about your code review for 1942 after you finish committing
[13:22:52 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon, anastasiac; also i guess you both need to get your latest commits reviewed
[13:23:02 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I expect you folks would have had an easier time with the project up until now if there had been some AT users involved n testing.
[13:23:12 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[13:23:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps it would be better to say that the project would have been more "successful"
[13:23:32 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Perhaps the Credibility2.0 core participants can do some testing of fluid while they are assisting us with our project.
[13:24:24 EST(-0500)] <jessm> we are always on the lookout for testers
[13:24:47 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Still a long time until march, lots of time for improved "success".
[13:24:53 EST(-0500)] <jessm> absolutely
[13:25:10 EST(-0500)] <Everett> ok, talk to you all later.
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[13:26:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK, FLUID-1616 set committed
[13:27:00 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Let the mayhem begin
[13:27:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I believe I have managed to blast everything except for Uploader
[13:29:20 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: thanks... i guess i can see what the rest of my day will be like
[13:29:29 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'm going to update the daily build site now
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[13:33:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o, anastasiac: Bosmon and I have briefly been discussing fluid.fail(), my favourite function in the whole framework.
[13:33:44 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> oh, yes, that one
[13:33:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> If you remember, we do something very odd in its implementation to make life easier for us while we're debugging.
[13:33:55 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> ecochran, colinclark: seems like the Uploader Basic Tests (unit test is failing)
[13:33:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/tests/fluid-tests/uploader/Uploader-test.html
[13:33:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Remember that Firebug doesn't stop on thrown errors.
[13:34:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Did Bosmon commit his changes to the keyboard-a11y plugin recently, by any chance?
[13:34:45 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yes he did
[13:34:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That'll do it.
[13:34:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[13:34:54 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> the filequeuevie tests also fail
[13:34:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> okay... thanks
[13:35:06 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sorry didn't mean to interupt you
[13:35:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So, anyway, since Firebug doesn't stop on thrown errors, we call a non-existent function to cause an error that Firebug will stop on.
[13:35:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> This really makes life confusing for our end-users, but very useful for us while we're doing development.
[13:35:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Justin_o: Yes, I said that I would leave Uploader to ecochran
[13:35:42 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But I can take care of it now, if you want
[13:35:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: That would be awesome if you can, yes.
[13:36:00 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: okay.. sorry
[13:36:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon is proposing that fluid.fail() be something we change right before each release.
[13:36:18 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> and then change back?
[13:36:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ecochran: Exactly.
[13:36:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In fact, to be mega-cunning, perhaps we could even find a way to do it in our build scripts
[13:36:29 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> hahaha
[13:36:35 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> interesting...
[13:36:46 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> We could put a specially formatted comment before and after the "magic line"
[13:36:48 EST(-0500)] <ecochran> actually makes tons of sense
[13:36:50 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i was just going to ask about that... if simon's work had made that possible
[13:36:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Making sure the release version of the code simply calls "throws" instead of doing this message.fail() silliness for end users. But for us, who benefit from added Firebugginess, we'll leave it in trunk.
[13:36:53 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That the Ant thing could grab at it
[13:36:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Yes, that would be possible.
[13:37:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> For 0.6 we should just go ahead and make the change manually.
[13:37:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I will just take a "bio break"
[13:37:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Being a "bio thing"
[13:37:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Any obvious concerns/complaints about this approach?
[13:37:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon:
[13:37:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I received a comment from an end-user who was as confused about message.fail() as I was.
[13:38:02 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: will the implementors benefit from having fluid.fail in the state that we use it
[13:38:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Not as much as they'd likely be confused by it, IMHO.
[13:38:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i guess that just answered my question
[13:38:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But that's a good qeustion.
[13:38:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So, comments/concerns/agreement about this approach?
[13:38:47 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> could we have it in the non-minified version and not in the minified version
[13:38:53 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> would it be reasonable to leave the old code in, commented explaining its purpose and use, so that implementors could choose to use it?
[13:39:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: In theory, yes, once we added this process to the build.
[13:39:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: I always look upon commented code left in a source file with some suspicion, but that's a possibility.
[13:40:06 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I look upon it with suspicion, too, but I consider this to be a special case
[13:40:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> yeah
[13:40:17 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I'm not sure about it, it was just a thought
[13:40:28 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> because implementors might find it useful
[13:41:15 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i suppose you could create a debug mode that would turn it on and off, but i'm guessing that would increase the complexity of our components
[13:41:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Well, that's an interesting idea, actually.
[13:42:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We can dynamically redefine the implementation of fluid.fail() based on whether or not we're in debug mode.
[13:42:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: When you return, thoughts?
[13:47:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[13:48:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm not sure how it helps
[13:48:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If the code is minified, the any particular behaviour in Firebug is worthless
[13:48:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Your point being that Firebug is useless for any minified files, right?
[13:49:00 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[13:49:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yeah.
[13:49:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> thinking
[13:50:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess the point here is still that this is functionality that can potentially confuse users...
[13:50:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> what on earth?
[13:50:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Explicitly turning it is probably the way to go.
[13:50:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> fluid.fail()
[13:50:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Throwing an exception in the case there is a fatal error?
[13:50:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> No, no.
[13:50:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> calling message.fail() in the case that there is a fatal error
[13:50:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[13:50:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It's useful if you know you need it.
[13:50:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> This should not happen in release code
[13:50:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So perhaps toggling it on and off is appropriate for anyone...
[13:51:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Why?
[13:51:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Why would someone minify code, that was not in a release?
[13:51:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> They wouldn't.
[13:51:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And on the other hand, who would run with un-minified code, except as a developer?
[13:51:38 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But my point is that someone who is doing some development against trunk may still find this confusing!
[13:51:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Hell, I found it confusing.
[13:51:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ....
[13:51:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> My point is that, were I to really want to break in Firebug, I could turn it on.
[13:52:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And understand the concequences.
[13:52:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If they find it confusing as it is, what are the chances they would successfully locate the option and alter it?
[13:56:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If we disable it, it will just join those 300 other "cunning features that noone ever gets around to finding"
[13:56:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And people will just find that Firebug doesn't seem to work for some reason and vaguely curse it
[13:57:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> How many of them will get as far as consciously articulating to themselves, or anyone else, the fact that it doesn't seem to be stopping at the right line number when a failure happens in the framework?
[13:58:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> They will just think to themselves... "Oh, this must be one of those particularly serious kinds of failures that Firebug can't cope with.... perhaps it will work next time"
[13:58:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> one sec
[14:00:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: But I guess that's kind of the point...
[14:00:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Most of those users will be equally perplexed by a weird error that occurs for seemingly no reason.
[14:01:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm willing to go either way, assuming we can ensure that end-users don't have to contend with message.fail().
[14:02:54 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: can you take a look at http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/sample-code/keyboard-a11y/jquery-ui-tabs/jquery-ui-accessible-tabs.html
[14:03:01 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> the tabs don't seem to be tabs anymore
[14:03:25 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, it's throwing a "...tabindex is not a function" error
[14:03:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon split.
[14:03:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> IRC split.
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[14:04:03 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> it looks like it needs to be updated to your new api
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[14:06:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Sorry folks
[14:06:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Lots of stuff was lost in the split
[14:06:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> At least, me
[14:09:20 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/sample-code/keyboard-a11y/jquery-ui-tabs/jquery-ui-accessible-tabs.html
[14:09:22 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> is broken
[14:09:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:09:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I will fix it
[14:09:38 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> thanks
[14:09:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> After I have done with Uploader
[14:10:12 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'll try not to find anything else
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[14:12:59 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: just curious which files you have to update still.. is it all uploader pages
[14:14:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:15:01 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> how about inline edit?
[14:16:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I did that
[14:16:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> At least, the tests run
[14:17:22 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> hmm....
[14:17:43 EST(-0500)] <clown> As seen on slashdot: JavaScript is dead; the future of web programming is C/C++ compiled to x86. Anyone know if C is accessible? [http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2008/12/native-client-technology-for-running.html]
[14:18:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: don't worry... it was my mistake for the inline edit one
[14:18:21 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK
[14:18:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I think I have dealt with everything now
[14:18:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do you see anything else broken?
[14:19:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> did you check the uploader springboard
[14:19:11 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/fluid-components/html/Uploader.html#
[14:20:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> there is something wrong with IE on line 244 of something.. i'm investigating now
[14:21:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What are you trying?
[14:21:10 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> seems to be gone after refreshing my cache
[14:21:33 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> those were the mock-ups
[14:22:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:22:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, shall I commit what I have?
[14:22:35 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sure... sounds good
[14:22:45 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> everything else seems okay
[14:25:24 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: there is an error on line 63 of InlineEdit.js in IE7
[14:26:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Darn that
[14:26:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But I do wonder why it is not caught in anything else
[14:26:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which sample shows it?
[14:26:30 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> http://build.fluidproject.org/fluid/tests/fluid-tests/InlineEdit-test.html
[14:26:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Oh, that
[14:26:33 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> unit test
[14:26:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That can't have been caused by what I did....
[14:26:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It has probably been there for a while
[14:27:07 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> really... oh maybe it's an old bug filed, but i thought that was fixed...
[14:27:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I suspect my fix to FLUID-1528 broke it...
[14:27:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[14:28:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am sure you would have caught this in this time....
[14:28:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It has been more than a month
[14:29:21 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Do the samples work correctly in IE7?
[14:29:33 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That is, does the cursor move to the end, in the places where it ought?
[14:29:36 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> they seem to both be working
[14:29:42 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> oh... let me double check
[14:30:14 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> yep it seems to be working
[14:30:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:30:28 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I may have missed running the unit tests in IE7 over the last month.. so i may have missed it
[14:30:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Can you isolate which test exactly is exploding?
[14:30:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[14:31:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> it may just be a case that as with Firefox, we simply have to swallow that exception
[14:31:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Text range selection is ludicrously unstable and broken in all the browsers
[14:32:31 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> a function that is broken in all browsers doesn't deserve to be a function
[14:32:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes well
[14:32:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It works sometimes
[14:33:36 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'm going to update the daily build site
[14:33:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And That's What We Mean When We Say Or We Sing
[14:34:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Is Welcome As Flowers That Bloom In The Spring.....
[14:34:34 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> is that a song or a poem or a movie quote or something else
[14:34:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon>
[14:34:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://math.boisestate.edu/GaS/mikado/webopera/mk209.html
[14:36:17 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> oh interesting... how did you find that
[14:36:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ???
[14:36:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I am listening to it right now
[14:36:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I have had it in this file here for more than 9 years
[14:38:10 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'll have to listen to it after i get my headset out of the packaging
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[14:40:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, the Karaoke version is not up to much
[14:43:15 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, regarding the lack of backward compatibility in the keyboard a11y plug-in:
[14:43:33 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> There are people out there who are using the plug-in outside the scope of our code
[14:43:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:43:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:43:56 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> so they will be adversely affected by the api change
[14:43:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[14:44:10 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> it would be good to include a compatibility plug-in with the changes
[14:44:16 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> "I ADMIRE YOUR POSITIVE ATTITUDE, FATHER JACK!"
[14:44:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Sadly, that is impossible
[14:45:22 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark says "I don't believe it"
[14:45:29 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> His head is in a grant
[14:45:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> What does he know
[14:45:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> There is nothing we can do
[14:45:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If we didn't break this API, JQuery would break it for us
[14:46:07 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I notice even in our current distribution we are masking an existing function named "select"
[14:46:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess we never noticed it
[14:46:27 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Or noone else noticed the lack of it
[14:49:21 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon I think there is another bug with the uploader spring board demo
[14:49:41 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> removeFile.tabindex is not a function
[14:49:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> line 185 uploader.js
[14:50:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Aha!
[14:50:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Untested functionality!
[14:50:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Go to colinclark and wash his head
[14:51:25 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> wash his head?
[14:51:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> YYes
[14:51:32 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> hmm... not part of my job description
[14:51:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> You know, like Marvin does
[14:52:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK, fixed that
[14:52:55 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> this apparently makes colinclark uncomfortable
[14:53:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the depths of his Grant Cave
[14:54:13 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://www.facebook.com/people/Grant-Cave/509823011
[14:56:46 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> Bosmon: I think you have an extra comma on line 25 of rich-text-inline-edit.js
[14:57:05 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'm not sure if this needs to be fixed if you are going to be making new pages
[14:57:39 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> sorry i should have said if you are putting it back into the component
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[15:00:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK, thanks
[15:00:59 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> np
[15:17:55 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> Bosmon, fj4000: could you update JIRA to mark whichever issue(s) you're working on to "In Progress" please? I need to know what's next on the list...
[15:18:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[15:18:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> FLUID-1888
[15:18:26 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> done
[15:18:27 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> have all the committs been reviewed and marked as such in jira
[15:18:29 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> 1901
[15:18:48 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> could you go to JIRA an update the issues? thanks so much...
[15:18:57 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Does anyone remember where athena7 said she put that sample that I need to get working?
[15:19:00 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> by update, I mean mark them as "in progress"
[15:19:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, updated
[15:19:24 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> fabulous - thanks!
[15:22:22 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> fj4000, I'll have a look at your commit for FLUID-1925
[15:22:32 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> thank you
[15:23:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Google is really so fine
[15:23:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I can just Google for "athena7 refresh"
[15:23:20 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> its so fine it blows your mind
[15:23:25 EST(-0500)] <fj4000> hey Google...chacha
[15:23:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah
[15:23:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> And I find a nice lecture here from colinclark
[15:24:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> On the nature of a Component and a Subcomponent
[15:24:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> anastasiac: I forget, did you attend the pupusa conversation?
[15:27:11 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> no, Bosmon, i didn't
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[15:46:57 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> i'm going to be updating the build site
[15:47:40 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I'll be sending out an update of the bug parade shortly. Please note that I cannot close an issue until the commit has been reviewed and the result marked on the jira
[16:10:08 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> I have just sent version 4 of the bug parade out, we have our first closed bug and there are a few that can be reviewed
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[16:34:51 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, I'll start a review of FLUID-1616, the changes to the keyboard a11y plugin api
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[18:48:33 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has joined #fluid-work
[18:48:56 EST(-0500)] * Everett (n=Mirc4Lif@fctnnbsc16w-156034216002.pppoe-dynamic.nb.aliant.net) has left #fluid-work