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Comment: Migrated to Confluence 4.0

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[10:01:26 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> I can't seem to connect to
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[12:23:40 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> EricDalquist: Sorry, I missed your message.
[12:23:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Can you connect now?
[12:23:50 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> yup
[12:23:52 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> sweet
[12:23:53 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> thanks
[12:23:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It should be up and working again. Apparently our server crashed over the weekend.
[12:24:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> My optimistic interpretation is that the jQuery community has been curious about my accessibility plugins and the server couldn't handle the load. (smile)
[12:24:54 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> lol
[12:24:55 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist>
[12:25:00 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> I added Fluid to ohloh
[12:25:10 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> hope you don't mind (smile)
[12:25:19 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> anyone can create an account and update info about the project
[12:30:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Not at all. That's great!
[12:31:12 EST(-0500)] <EricDalquist> the code metrics should be up in a few hours
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[16:16:10 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> hey colinclark
[16:16:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> slightlyoff: Hi!
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[16:17:29 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> colinclark: so I work on Dojo....
[16:17:43 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> some of the ATRC folks have been (graciously) helping us with a11y for the last year or so
[16:18:33 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> colinclark: all of which is by way of saying that what you're trying to do with Fluid is something I've been trying to get organized in the Dojo universe for years
[16:18:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> slightlyoff: Yes, it's great to have you here. I'm very familiar with your work. (smile)
[16:18:39 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> and I'm super-excited about Fluid
[16:18:46 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's great!
[16:19:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We're pretty excited about it too.
[16:19:21 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> I also heard through the grapevite that you felt there were serious problems with Dojo, and I want to see how I can either help address them (or at least verify them)
[16:19:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Wow, that's a huge question! (smile)
[16:20:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think Dojo is great. And the work that Simon and David and Becky have been putting into it for a11y has been pretty remarkable.
[16:20:35 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> For much of our own code, though, we did struggle with it from 0.4 through to 0.9.
[16:20:40 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> ouch
[16:20:45 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> I'm very sorry about that
[16:20:49 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> my personal apologies
[16:21:05 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> (I wish we'd had this conversation a year ago...)
[16:21:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It's understandable. You guys were going through a huge refactoring. 0.4 - 1.0 was a tough change, but it seems like it needed to be done.
[16:21:19 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> yeah, 1.0 is really, really solid
[16:21:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I wish we had talked about this a year ago, too.
[16:21:35 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> 0.9 and 1.0 are the first versions of Dojo that I don't apologize for in some way = )
[16:21:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We actually tried. With Simon and David involved in Dojo, we tried to get more involved.
[16:21:55 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But we got some fairly cold responses initially. Not from you.
[16:21:58 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> what happened? were we too difficult?
[16:21:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think his name was wildbill?
[16:22:05 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> yeah
[16:22:07 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> bill keese
[16:22:12 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> (widget system owner)
[16:22:14 EST(-0500)] * slightlyoff sighs
[16:22:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Right, that's him.
[16:22:30 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> he's...a unique personality
[16:22:38 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> he lives in japan and tends to be very litteral
[16:22:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I don't mean to pick on him. We have lots of those types in Fluid, too. (smile)
[16:23:06 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> no, it's just what it is
[16:23:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Anyway, there was this feeling that, with all the pressure of getting 1.0 out the door, that it would be hard to insert our input into the process.
[16:23:35 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> ugh
[16:23:59 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> i'm sorry for that.
[16:24:14 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> (hi, i'm a dojo-helper, nice to meet you)
[16:24:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> phiggins: Nice to meet you, too. (smile)
[16:24:35 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> colinclark: phiggins is a prolific Dojo contributor, and works in dojox much of the time (the extensions area)
[16:24:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool!
[16:25:14 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> I'm on a kick of making degradable widgets.
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[16:25:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's awesome. Definitely something that's needed.
[16:26:12 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> so let me just lay this out: we need serious help in building better, more webish interactions for our widget set
[16:26:34 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> we've known it for a long while
[16:26:47 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> and have tried (in vain) to work with interaction designers to get it done
[16:26:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I agree. (smile) They're great, accessible widgets, but they're a bit... odd sometimes in their interactions. (smile)
[16:27:06 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> at this point, SitePen (a dojo-centric consulting firm) is probably going to start paying for design help
[16:27:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Great!
[16:27:48 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> but our needs go beyond what can be done there...we both need to fix what's there in terms of itneraction, but also start to develop new and better interaction primitives
[16:28:03 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Right.
[16:29:55 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> so I want to find a way for us to work together
[16:30:15 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> we owe it to the users of Dojo apps to provide them with great interactions
[16:30:37 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> (our paging story is a mess right now....many of the widgets aren't friendly in terms of clicks-to-goal, etc.)
[16:31:00 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> and I really like what Fluid is doing and how you're getting it done
[16:31:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Interesting. Our interaction designers have been doing some work on new paging designs.
[16:31:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's very kind. We're still learning a lot about how to bring design into the open source model, but it's been a lot of fun and we're slowly making progress on some great designs.
[16:32:17 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> so I need to go make a strong case to our people
[16:32:22 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> but I think that's easy
[16:32:29 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> (relatively speaking)
[16:35:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm wondering how we can build bridges between our communities. We are slowly getting more involved in the jQuery community, since we had such success with it for our first component. But perhaps there's a way to collaborate across toolkits?
[16:37:13 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> hrmmm
[16:37:38 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> so the Dojo world really gets a11y and the need to build the full experience
[16:37:55 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> some of that is injected from the outside
[16:38:01 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> some of that is intrinsic to who's involved
[16:38:05 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I had hoped David and Simon would serve as that initial bridge into Dojo early on, but I guess the message got lost somewhere.
[16:38:27 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> who do you work for?
[16:38:30 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> ATRC?
[16:38:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, I'm at the ATRC.
[16:38:56 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> what are you doing on Feb 7th and 8th?
[16:38:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I've been working in accessibility for about 10 years now, all at the ATRC.
[16:39:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Let me check my calendar...
[16:39:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> My travel schedule is brutal in February, but I think it might be free.
[16:39:55 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> ok...let me check w/ SitePen...I'd love to get you to meet everyone
[16:40:13 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> we're having a set of Developer Days at Google's HQ in Mt. View CA
[16:40:25 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yes, I saw that on Simon's whiteboard, actually.
[16:40:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm free those days.
[16:40:50 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> no promises...let me see what I can do
[16:41:30 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> and in the meantime colinclark I am eternally idle and would love to act as a bridge between communities
[16:42:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> phiggins: Great to hear it. Welcome! (smile)
[16:42:17 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> gracias.
[16:42:31 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> colinclark: phiggins is good people = )
[16:42:38 EST(-0500)] <slightlyoff> (and a committer)
[16:43:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It is indeed too bad we weren't able to have this conversation a few months ago. It was a hard time working with Dojo during that transition phase.
[16:43:03 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> and a11y enthusiast
[16:43:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Awesome!
[16:43:33 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> colinclark: it was a very hard time, but the benefits are vast.
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