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[10:16:26 EST(-0500)] <athena7> morning colinclark, did you ever have any thoughts about the refresh issues i was seeing yesterday?
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[11:13:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7: Sorry, I was in a meeting.
[11:14:10 EST(-0500)] <athena7> no problem 
[11:14:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think we should ping Bosmon about it.
[11:14:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Based on my reading of the actual implementation, it should work...
[11:14:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> but you know how that goes. 
[11:15:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We have used it successfully for simpler reordering cases...
[11:15:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> list reordering where the items are updated periodically by an Ajax call to the server.
[11:15:21 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So this is strange.
[11:16:24 EST(-0500)] <lessthanzero> colinclark: hope you don't mind I'm going to create an issue for the license investigation with the lawyer, its ok to assign to you?
[11:16:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: You around?
[11:16:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> lessthanzero: Please do, yes.
[11:16:35 EST(-0500)] <lessthanzero> rgr that.
[11:16:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll send an email about it today.
[11:16:41 EST(-0500)] <lessthanzero> awesome.
[11:16:46 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I am so behind on email, it's not even funny. 
[11:16:58 EST(-0500)] <lessthanzero> :| yeah.. It can pile up quickly
[11:17:10 EST(-0500)] <lessthanzero> Thanks for jumping in there today, was awesome to have your perspective.
[11:17:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7: I think Boz is on his way.
[11:17:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> lessthanzero: No problem. It's an interesting topic.
[11:17:34 EST(-0500)] <athena7> thanks colin, much appreciated!
[11:18:16 EST(-0500)] <athena7> if there's any debugging information you need from me, let me know
[11:20:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Thanks for your SWFUpload test results today.
[11:20:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It seems like fairly dismal news, unfortunately.
[11:28:33 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: no problem... I'm trying to think of ways around the issue but don't know too much about actionscript and how it works with javascript... i'll try to put some time into looking into this though
[11:28:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Thanks.
[11:29:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> jacobfarber and I are preparing for the worst, if we have to actually modify the ActionScript code for SWFUpload.
[11:29:39 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> i think a peice of the sky just fell on the roof here
[11:29:46 EST(-0500)] * jacobfarber looks up
[11:30:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'm already going to have to modify SWFUpload's JavaScript code to do the transparent overlay in a DOM agnostic way.
[11:31:09 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> colinclark: what happens if you don't have flash installed? is the button below it supposed to work?
[11:31:22 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: At the moment, no.
[11:31:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> My goal for the release is a three-stage process:
[11:31:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> 1. If you've got Gears, use that.
[11:31:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> 2. If you've got Flash 9 or 10, use that.
[11:31:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> 3. Otherwise, we'll fall back to a simple single file upload.
[11:32:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Given the new wrinkles in SWFUpload 2.2, this may be too ambitious for Infusion 0.6.
[11:32:15 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But I've got my fingers crossed.
[11:32:19 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> good luck
[11:42:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7: I don't know where Bosmon disappeared to, but I asked him to ping you whenever he gets a chance.
[11:42:51 EST(-0500)] <athena7> thanks, sounds great!
[11:51:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: I just updated the Source Code page in our wiki.
[11:51:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It was pretty crusty. Last updated in November 2008.
[11:51:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Source+Code
[11:52:07 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, cool!
[11:52:08 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Sorry, November 2007.
[11:52:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Very satisfying to have things be a bit simpler and more clearly named, a year later.
[11:52:21 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> we do need to do a better job of keeping an eye on old pages
[11:52:34 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> e.g. http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Showcase+of+Recent+Work
[11:52:46 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ack!
[11:52:51 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> crustiness!
[11:52:53 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> indeed!
[11:53:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I wrote that page way back for a Mellon thingy.
[11:53:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It is still in its original form, more or less.
[11:54:00 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I guess we should update that sometime.
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[12:43:28 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> hi, Bosmon
[12:43:40 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I'm wanting to check if my understanding of something with the renderer is correct
[12:44:02 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I would like my example (the data-binding one) to automatically re-display the dump of the model when the model changes
[12:44:14 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Hi there
[12:44:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I was looking at the renderer to see if it has any form of event-firing type things
[12:44:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Also, athena7 - you were wanting to ask something about refreshView()
[12:44:34 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Aha anastasiac - nothing yet
[12:44:41 EST(-0500)] <athena7> yes, Bosmon
[12:44:41 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, that's what it seemed
[12:44:41 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But there will be stuff there soon
[12:44:47 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something
[12:44:51 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> so there is intention to add that?
[12:44:58 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which is part of a further glorious port of RSF infrastructure
[12:45:02 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In the form of BeanGuards(TM)
[12:45:04 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i'd been trying to use myReorderer.refresh(); to refresh the reorder after adding more columns to the layout
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[12:45:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[12:45:35 EST(-0500)] <athena7> but even after calling refresh(), i can't seem to drag portlets into the new column
[12:45:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> hm
[12:45:47 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Let me look
[12:46:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Which style are you using to specify your layout to the LayoutHandler?
[12:47:05 EST(-0500)] <athena7> here's the setup code: http://fluid.pastebin.com/m4f468bf7
[12:47:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Cool, thanks
[12:47:38 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> aha
[12:48:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I guess this is one aspect of the Reorderer's setup that has not been "automated" yet
[12:48:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Perhaps we should JIRA it
[12:48:39 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> For now, you will have to workaround by manually making a call to this "layoutFromFlat" utility that we have
[12:49:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> No, wait...
[12:49:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:49:30 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> That is right
[12:50:49 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> If you have the source checked out, you can fire up ModuleLayout.js and have a look at line 152
[12:51:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Oh dear....
[12:51:40 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It looks like "layout" is a private variable....
[12:51:47 EST(-0500)] <athena7> ah
[12:53:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> OK
[12:53:23 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, this sort of looks like doom, for now
[12:53:53 EST(-0500)] <athena7> anything that's likely fixable for the 0.6 release?
[12:53:57 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:54:01 EST(-0500)] <athena7> excellent
[12:54:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I will make it a priority
[12:54:03 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> 
[12:54:10 EST(-0500)] <athena7> aw thank you!
[12:54:23 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i expect you'll have 0.6 out before uportal 3.1 is out, so i'll just leave it for now
[12:54:26 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Things which genuinely arise from our still rather limited userbase should certainly go to the front of the queue
[12:54:41 EST(-0500)] <athena7> when you think the bug is fixed, do let me know and i'll update our fluid javascript file and test
[12:54:43 EST(-0500)] <athena7> thanks!
[12:55:03 EST(-0500)] <athena7> so far that's the only 0.6-beta issue i've discovered
[12:55:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It is all very well to write a framework with the features you think your users should ought to want...
[12:55:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ha
[12:55:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7: Infusion 0.6 is due out on Dec. 17th, so that should hopefully fit your timelines.
[12:55:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Although of course it is clear it should be written without the features you think they should ought not to want
[12:56:03 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Gary mentioned that he figured 3.1 wasn't due out until sometime in the new year.
[12:56:08 EST(-0500)] <athena7> plenty early enough for us
[12:56:10 EST(-0500)] <athena7> yep
[12:56:33 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i think we'll be just fine
[12:56:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> cool
[12:56:49 EST(-0500)] <athena7> the fluid reorder's performance looks great these days
[12:56:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So I was on the subway for most of this conversation. But Bosmon figured out your problem?
[12:57:01 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i can't believe how much faster it is than the first version we tried
[12:57:02 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And diagnosed it as Doom?
[12:57:05 EST(-0500)] <athena7> apparently!
[12:57:13 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7: Awesome. I'm glad it's fast.
[12:57:30 EST(-0500)] <athena7> yes, and i certainly love to removal of that document.writeln landmine
[12:57:40 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i can stop marking tickets "won't fix"
[12:57:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Among other things, our DOM Binder-a feature of the framework-has this caching ability which speeds things up.
[12:57:56 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The fact that Bosmon had to rewrite a chunk of jQuery UI was unfortunate, but it paid off.
[12:57:56 EST(-0500)] <athena7> awesome
[12:58:00 EST(-0500)] <athena7> yeah
[12:58:24 EST(-0500)] <athena7> oh i meant to ask if that "selectables" conflict was resolved
[12:58:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> ummm
[12:58:38 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i just stopped importing that jquery dependency for the time being as it turned out we weren't using it
[12:58:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's one for the bug parade next week.
[12:58:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It has been lingering for awhile, but I don't think anyone has fixed it yet.
[12:59:04 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-1888
[12:59:05 EST(-0500)] * colinclark is sheepish.
[12:59:10 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, do we know what we plan to do about it?
[13:00:08 EST(-0500)] <athena7> it's not currently affecting us, but in theory someone might write a portlet which required that jqueryui dependency
[13:00:29 EST(-0500)] <athena7> at the very least, we'd need to document that it was an issue
[13:01:12 EST(-0500)] <athena7> Bosmon: if it's helpful, i can commit the broken refresh() call to subversion so that you'll have something real to play with on your uportal test server
[13:01:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> athena7: That would be really helpful, thanks
[13:01:35 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I was already boggling trying to think how to create a test case for this
[13:02:32 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i think you have a nightly build server for uportal, so if i commit it it should show up?
[13:04:54 EST(-0500)] <athena7> hm, doesn't actually look up to date, assuming it's intended to be at http://build.fluidproject.org/uPortal/render.userLayoutRootNode.uP
[13:05:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok
[13:05:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I'm not too sure about how that server works - you might want to try anastasiac
[13:07:22 EST(-0500)] <athena7> ok
[13:08:06 EST(-0500)] <athena7> i'll be back shortly
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[13:35:00 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> michelled: Can you explain a bit more about FLUID-1838
[13:35:01 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ?
[13:37:36 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> athena7, Bosmon: Simon Wang configured that uPortal instance. I'll check in with him about why it seems to be out of date.
[13:37:49 EST(-0500)] <athena7> ok
[13:37:52 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: michelled seems to have stepped out for a minute, along with anastasiac apparently.
[13:37:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> They had tupperware, so I guess they're getting food.
[13:38:05 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> ha
[13:38:14 EST(-0500)] <phiggins> (sorry just flipped through)
[13:38:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[13:49:01 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon: FLUID-1838 is about simplifying layout in order to remove clutter and provide a more linear experience of the page
[13:49:21 EST(-0500)] <michelled> essentially flattening out the whole page
[14:02:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Can we/do we actually require to do that?
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[14:16:52 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> here is a question to the developers. For the the bug parade would it be helpful to know the severity of the bugs (displayed in the bug parade list) or will this be distracting
[14:18:04 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Justin_o: I think it's useful so we put our efforts into the most severe issues
[14:18:18 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon: the requirement came out of a conversation at the all hands
[14:18:28 EST(-0500)] <michelled> with Jutta, Clayton and Gary
[14:18:41 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> michelled: okay... that makes sense. I'll include that with the next bug parade
[14:18:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: I think we should put our efforts into the most trivial issues.
[14:18:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It is a parade, after all!
[14:19:15 EST(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark: are you going to wear a costume?
[14:19:40 EST(-0500)] <michelled> Bosmon: Did you happen to see the notes that were posted? They are very point form and may not be all that helpful but it's a start
[14:19:46 EST(-0500)] <michelled> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/All+Hands+Draft+User+Interface+Options+Structure
[14:20:12 EST(-0500)] <michelled> I think that for some people it's a lot easier to consume a page that doesn't have a lot of structure
[14:20:35 EST(-0500)] <michelled> as to whether we can do it I guess we are still finding out
[14:20:43 EST(-0500)] <michelled> our first experiments are terrible
[14:21:58 EST(-0500)] <michelled> we will be able to flatten pages if they use the fluid skin to create bars, columns etc
[14:22:04 EST(-0500)] <michelled> right jacobfarber?
[14:22:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: Might be worth breaking down the terminology.
[14:22:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> When you say "flatten," you mean... ?
[14:22:31 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> I think so
[14:22:36 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> fletten = linearize
[14:22:37 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[14:22:38 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> i think
[14:22:40 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> right
[14:22:43 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It sounds terrifying
[14:22:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: It's very important in a number of circumstances.
[14:23:05 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Screen magnification is one example, but small screens is another.
[14:23:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Just the sort of thing I thought we'd decided it would be safer if we would stop trying to claim we could achieve
[14:23:12 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I hate multiple columns on my iPhone.
[14:23:19 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> linearization should be doable in a decent way if, like you said michelled, they use th eFSS throughout
[14:23:29 EST(-0500)] <michelled> yes
[14:23:29 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: What on earth?!?
[14:23:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You are a unilateralist!
[14:24:06 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Enemy of Freedom
[14:24:21 EST(-0500)] <michelled> well, Bosmon, we are not claiming that we can do everything to unknown markup.
[14:24:38 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> nor are we saying it will be a100% all the time
[14:24:46 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> but we are making a best attempt
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[14:25:43 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> table based layouts, for example, will be near-impossible to properly linearize
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[16:49:15 EST(-0500)] * michelled has found our IE bug
[16:49:17 EST(-0500)] <michelled> http://webbugtrack.blogspot.com/2007/11/bug-193-onchange-does-not-fire-properly.html
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