[00:28:53 EDT(-0400)] * Lee_Bee (n=UXExpert@96.49.146.59) has joined #fluid-work
[00:53:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Hi all. I'm new to IRC and a member of the FLUID engage team. I thought I'd test this out to see that it's actually working...
[00:53:53 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> test... test...
[01:09:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Hello Lee
[01:09:14 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Your test is successful 
[01:09:21 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Although you are up terribly late....
[01:15:10 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> It's all good, I'm west coast so it's only 10:15pm
[01:15:38 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Are you part of the fluid engage team?
[01:15:43 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I am, yes
[01:16:21 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Oh great. I'm on the design team. I'm based in Vancouver, BC. You?
[01:17:52 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, you will have seen me on standups occasionally
[01:17:57 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I tend to talk about my CATT a lot
[01:19:03 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Oh! COLIN?
[01:19:13 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> No... the other one
[01:19:21 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Colin doesn't really have a CATT, he stole it from down the street
[01:19:27 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I am Antranig
[01:19:56 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Hi Antranig!
[01:20:13 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Sorry... I was trying to recall another cat lover
[01:20:22 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> There are quite a few in Fluid
[01:20:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I will be going back home to Cambridge, England next week to fetch my CATT back here to Boulder
[01:22:00 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Talk about being up late!
[01:22:27 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> How much of a time difference is between boulder and van?
[01:22:31 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Just 1
[01:22:40 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Mountain Time...
[01:22:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> oh...
[01:24:57 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm conscious I may be distracting you from your work? I appreciate the hello and I hope to be more involved on IRC so I can get more of a sense of what's happening on the developers end of things.
[01:25:51 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Ah no, I am not really doing much work at present...
[01:26:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It is better to wait for the rest of the team to wake up
[01:26:14 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But IRC isn't just for developers, you know
[01:26:33 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> We would love for it to be a balanced representation
[01:29:45 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm really trying to get more involved so I'm happy to hang out on IRC. A lot of the lingo may fly over my head but I think things will start sticking eventually. 
[01:30:09 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Who knows? Maybe a design spin might be useful?
[01:30:37 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, it is great to see you - and please encourage as many others as you can in design to pop along
[01:31:24 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I did forward an email to vicki and kevin so hopefully they'll join soon. They're both out of town right now so it may take a couple of weeks.
[01:31:34 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> The difference in Fluid is that we are one community, not two - so we should act like it
[01:31:45 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But we should expect to see more integration over the next few months
[01:32:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Really until now we have been buried trying to make a demonstration of anything at all - since the technologies are all quite new. But we expect to see our improvement in responsiveness paying off soon
[01:33:57 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I must admit, I feel a little out of the loop in this regard... I know we are testing the components right now but I'm not sure how the larger vision will come together. I see things from the final product (like the kiosk) and not so much at a granular level (like components)...
[01:35:17 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Yes - well, there are lot of interesting discussions ahead of us, on how to integrate development and design cycles
[01:35:42 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> In some respects, though we have some very cool ideas, we are still generally finding our feet
[01:36:22 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But actually I think things are going very well... having been on a few such projects, this time there are a lot of very encouraging signs
[01:37:41 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I am interested to read your KIOSCK chats
[01:38:44 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Oh dear... I'm afraid we don't have many kiosk chats.
[01:38:53 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I think it's important for you in design to be aware that "this time", we are not just sitting here developing "components" which are somehow imagining we know how things are meant to be...
[01:39:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> We have unfortunately kept the word "component" because it is hard, and also sounds very silly, to think up new words...
[01:39:13 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> pretty much all the team discussions that happen with the kiosk happen in Vancouver and then in design meetings on (f-ing) Breeze
[01:39:27 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But the aim is to be ready, as quickly as possible, to implement "anything"
[01:39:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, I see a fine wiki page here
[01:40:13 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It would help if it linked to the Wireframes document that it is referring to...
[01:40:15 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Haha, I forgot about that.
[01:40:23 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Good call.
[01:40:26 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'll do that right now
[01:40:47 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> You forgot about it in the 20 minutes since you posted about it?
[01:41:10 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I know... I don't consider that really a chat... more like notes
[01:41:12 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee>
[01:42:55 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I think one of my goals for the next little while (and hanging out in here might really help) is understanding the goals of what the development team is doing and how that's working in tandem with the designers. There's this disconnect between the two...
[01:43:18 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Ah no, don't worry about that
[01:43:22 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I mean, do hang out here
[01:43:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But our goals are simply to support what you are coming up with
[01:43:41 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Unlike other development teams, we do not actually have goals of our own
[01:43:47 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> HAHA
[01:44:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> You think that is a joke, but it is not
[01:44:23 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I laugh because my partner works at SAP and as a designer he always complains about the developers own itinerary
[01:44:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Yes
[01:44:41 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It is a sad disease.... but what can you do
[01:44:52 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Most developers are schizoid shoe-starers
[01:44:54 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2>
[01:45:06 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> LOL
[01:45:42 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> There's some truth to that common saying "Designers are wankers"
[01:45:56 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> We have our share of faults.
[01:46:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But actually it is a really interesting issue how to harmonise on lifecycles... Clayton introduced me to this great chap, Kate Erlich, who works at IBM - http://domino.watson.ibm.com/cambridge/research.nsf/pages/kate_ehrlich.html
[01:46:20 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> She has been studying how what you might broadly call "agile" development cycles end up impacting those in design
[01:46:36 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Oh cool@
[01:46:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Since there is a natural tension between designing something as a "unified and harmonious concept" and being prepared to change that concept in a responsive and flexible way
[01:47:13 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> This is awesome!
[01:47:15 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I think, as with the "bones of development" there must be something like the "bones of design"
[01:47:39 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But probably harder to grips with, since there are fewer objective measurements in design
[01:47:54 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> get to grips with
[01:48:06 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> true... but I think it's recognizing patterns and using these as way to streamline the process...
[01:48:26 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> like what kate is studying..
[01:48:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, perhaps - but looking "back" at patterns, one is liable to only see disfunction
[01:48:49 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Really we are not going to get anywhere, with anything like the kinds of methods we have liked to use in the past
[01:48:50 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Disfunction is a means to change things
[01:48:59 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> For sure
[01:49:06 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> "All progress depends on the unreasonable Man"
[01:49:20 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I've always worked in academia, so the design cycles have been far more forgiving...
[01:49:41 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> but I do get a sense that in industry they're not and so they turn to things like personas and interviews... and usability tests....
[01:49:52 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Ah yes! Personas!
[01:50:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But really, anything that has a name, is crap...
[01:50:09 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> haha
[01:50:43 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> But yes, all I can say, is try not to be unduly worried by the fact we seem to be building things we call "components"
[01:50:49 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> We don't really mean by that the thing that other people mean
[01:50:50 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> It's very new to me, working in an agile development team....
[01:51:24 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm a very cautious designer so moving fast without knowing much terrifies me
[01:51:27 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Actually, we already have at least 3 different things we call "components", none of which are like the things that other people call components....
[01:51:48 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It is somewhat like the way New Age cultists like to talk about "energy"
[01:52:05 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> so, what do the others mean by components? How are ours different?
[01:52:24 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, other people call "components" things which are like "canned solutions to a problem"
[01:54:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Typically the developer has decided that he already understands the problem space, and has decided to cover some squashed section of the problem space isn't too much trouble for him to understand with some kind of "fused lump"
[01:54:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> So, I just googled for "UI Component" and the first hit couldn't be a better illustration
[01:54:29 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> http://examples.adobe.com/flex2/inproduct/sdk/explorer/explorer.html
[01:54:48 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Developers absolutely love to spend their time churning out dozens of these "things"
[01:55:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so destructive
[01:56:01 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> oh, just one moment. Bathroom break. brb
[01:56:25 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> http://www.google.com/search?q=ui+components
[02:04:02 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> haha!
[02:05:01 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm fascinated by what others find fascinating. I think people say similar things about the kind of design work I do... like observing people and understanding how they live...
[02:05:17 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> They say it is unlike other design work?
[02:05:18 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> design ethnography is the actual term...
[02:06:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, you could become an ethnographer of developers, but I doubt it would lead to much of a productive effect
[02:06:58 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Hmm... maybe i can piggy back kate's work in helping to streamline agile development
[02:07:10 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> That would be great
[02:07:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Hopefully our CATTT will be meeting with her later in November, to get a conversation started
[02:07:28 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> They are both based in MA
[02:08:01 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Don't think i'm thick... but when you say CATT... you mean?
[02:08:12 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Oh, I mean JESS THE CATTT
[02:08:18 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> She is another kind of CATT
[02:08:50 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> haha
[02:08:55 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> ok.. it all makes sense
[02:09:08 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> http://images.google.com/images?q=jess+the+cat
[02:10:08 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> See how much I've learned already by just talking with you on here? This is just awesome!
[02:10:25 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Insider info that the others don't know (yet)
[02:10:39 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2>
[02:10:50 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I have learned a lot too
[02:11:09 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I hope we will see lots more designers represented in IRC
[02:12:11 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'll drag them in here
[02:13:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> In trying to achieve success
[02:13:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> No envy racks our heart,
[02:13:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> And all the knowledge we possess,
[02:13:02 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> We mutually impart.
[02:13:05 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2>
[02:14:52 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Very relevant to me actually
[02:15:16 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> and something I hope to practice in all aspects of my life.
[02:15:29 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> designers are divas sometimes...
[02:16:33 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> but that's the beauty of interaction design... it's innately interdisciplinary
[02:22:44 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Well, splendid to talk to you, I had better turn in now. Do keep hanging around
[02:32:23 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> will do! ciao
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[09:21:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> folks on the commits list: I'm working on the engage nightly build and you may see some build failures for it this morning
[09:22:01 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> should be up and running soon
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[09:56:29 EDT(-0400)] <joan> hi all.
[09:57:26 EDT(-0400)] <joan> collin: at the end of yesterday, i decided to get various jiras xml's and store them inside a folder of the component. So I can call ajax to get them as information.
[09:58:13 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> joan, colinclark doesn't seem to be online yet - but that sounds good!
[09:58:18 EDT(-0400)] <joan> collin: only while constructing the component. Not as a final solution.
[09:58:25 EDT(-0400)] <joan> upps.
[09:59:30 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ah! joan, someone just reminded me that Colin may not be available today
[09:59:45 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> his sister is having a baby, and he's babysitting his niece
[09:59:54 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> he may be online, but he may not
[10:00:13 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled will likely be online soon
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[10:02:35 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ah, colinclark is here now, joan
[10:02:42 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> colinclark - are you an uncle again?
[10:02:42 EDT(-0400)] <joan> i see.
[10:03:19 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> anastasiac: It's a baby sister for Sayako. She seems unfazed by it.
[10:03:30 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> yay!! congratulation!
[10:03:34 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Hi joan, what's up?
[10:03:41 EDT(-0400)] <joan> congratulations.
[10:03:46 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> I'm on vacation today, but I have a few minutes to chat.
[10:04:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj4000: justin_o: you're on for a preso: http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2009/presentations
[10:05:01 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> jessm: thanks for the update
[10:05:16 EDT(-0400)] <joan> colin. yesterday you talked me about securety I've decided to get some jiras xmls and store them in a component folder so later I can get them via ajax without security problems.
[10:05:17 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> thanks
[10:06:22 EDT(-0400)] <joan> colin: only while writting the component code. so i can do it everything local (in my laptop).
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[10:07:30 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> justin_o: fj4000: thursday, 28th would be my guess - the date is obviously listed wrong
[10:07:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> joan: Makes sense. That's exactly what we do
[10:08:14 EDT(-0400)] <joan> fine.
[10:08:23 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Nice work.
[10:08:54 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> Any new bug parade updates people want to run by me before I disappear for awhile again?
[10:11:48 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> colinclark: fyi, the readme is approved and we're starting the release
[10:11:56 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> fj4000: That's fantastic news.
[10:12:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> Im sending out an email now
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[10:18:00 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark> ok, i'm gonna disappear for awhile, but will check in a little later to put out a new bug parade update.
[10:18:12 EDT(-0400)] * jessm waves at new baby
[10:19:02 EDT(-0400)] <colinclark>
[10:20:37 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> anastasiac: our 11a call has been rescheduled
[10:23:16 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> jessm: which 11am call? I had a 10:30am call on my calendar
[10:23:45 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> jessm, nevermind, just checked the cspace channel
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[10:25:04 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> anastasiac: yeah, what MF said – i got the time wrong
[10:25:13 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> k, np
[10:32:04 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jamon: ping
[10:32:19 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> michelled: pong
[10:32:39 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> can I skype with you? I'd like to talk through the issue I'm seeing with the engage nightly build
[10:44:05 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> hey everyone, I need to shut down the nightly build for a little while. sounds like noone is testing since fj4000 is starting the release anyway
[10:47:57 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, right now the build site is snafu
[10:48:05 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> oh wait
[10:48:09 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ya, because I shut it down
[10:48:11 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ok, I take that back
[10:48:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> it's better now
[10:49:19 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> anastasiac: there was a setting in the build scripts for JAVA_HOME that was messing up the engage build
[10:49:30 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ah
[10:49:35 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I removed it so that the builds use the system JAVA_HOME
[10:49:47 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> any idea why the scripts used to use the other version?
[10:50:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> jamon: it worked by the way
[10:50:29 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> michelled: perfect
[10:50:53 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> any idea what the issue was with building on titan yesterday?
[10:51:44 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> you mean the issue I was having with getting the data into the engage build?
[10:51:49 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> yeah
[10:52:02 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it was this java version problem
[10:52:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I can't explain why exactly
[10:52:17 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> but I know what fixes it
[10:52:42 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> those are annoying, but at least it works, let me know if anything else comes up
[10:52:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> anastasiac: any idea why the scripts used to use the other version of java home? if you can't remember I'm going to commit my change
[10:53:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I will jamon
[10:53:17 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, no, I can't remember that
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[11:56:26 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> anastasiac, michelled let me know if messages to commits and design-commits lists are getting through, should be delivering design commits to that list now
[11:56:51 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> guess I should sign up for it
[11:57:00 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I'll let James know
[11:57:12 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> thanks
[11:57:22 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> fj4000, re bundle testing: where are the bundles, and how do we test them?
[11:59:13 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> #fluid-work: testing bundles are now up
[11:59:33 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> @ flui-3298
[11:59:40 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> FLUID-3298
[11:59:46 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> and the test plan is here
[11:59:55 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Release+Package+QA+Test+Plan
[12:03:21 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> ok, jf4000, I'll take the minified InfusionAll version. laurel1 - do you want to pick one?
[12:04:31 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: hello.
[12:04:58 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> fj4000 - at least, I'll do the items that I have browsers for
[12:04:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> hi joan
[12:05:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> please just remember to check off what your doing
[12:05:14 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: have we got a component where i can see "ChangeApplier" and "DomBinder" use
[12:05:34 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the dom binder is used in all the components
[12:05:47 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it's essentially 'bound' in the call the initView
[12:05:57 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> and then used through 'that.locate'
[12:06:15 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: and also a component that retrieves data via ajax
[12:06:22 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> justin_o: do you have a good example of the change applier in action?
[12:06:22 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> jf4000, laurel1: let's assign ourselves to what we'll do then check them off when they're complete
[12:06:33 EDT(-0400)] <fj4000> sounds good
[12:09:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> Bosmon2: are you here?
[12:12:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> joan: I think Pager is probably the best example of using the change applier but it might also be a little confusing
[12:12:36 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I was trying to get Bosmon2's attention since he would both know Pager's state and know where you should look for change applier use
[12:12:59 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> anastasiac: any suggestions from you for change applier docs and examples?
[12:13:02 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: i need it because i have to retrieve the jira feeds and latter render (or re-render) the component
[12:13:53 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: well, i suppose that i need it.
[12:14:00 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, joan: the changeapplier docs are at http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/ChangeApplier and http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/ChangeApplier+API
[12:14:27 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> there aren't many components that actually make simple use of the ChangeApplier yet...
[12:15:55 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> joan: as far as pulling in data with ajax, I thought the Pager did that but I just looked and it doesn't seem to do this yet.
[12:16:16 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> you should use jQuery's ajax support
[12:17:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> joan, michelled, UI Options also uses a change applier
[12:18:30 EDT(-0400)] <joan> i see. But what troubles me is a doubt. First render the component and latter add dom elements (and render them) as a result of the ajax interaction with the jira server.
[12:19:05 EDT(-0400)] <joan> or just get all the remote stuff and render the component (all in one).
[12:20:33 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: which is the right approach?
[12:21:09 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> joan: I'd likely get all the data first and then render it once
[12:21:52 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> fj4000, and other testing: the paths to the demos on the qa page for the release package are probably wrong because of the restructuring for the demo protal
[12:22:37 EDT(-0400)] <joan> but there will be a lack of time (>20 seconds) between html page load and component rendering. A gauge or something like that to let user know that something is happenning?
[12:23:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> wow, 20 seconds is a long time. is that to fetch all the data?
[12:23:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> but yes, a warning to the user makes sense
[12:24:14 EDT(-0400)] <joan> the basic jira query gives you an xml bigger than 700K. latter i need to fire extra ajax calls to get component information.
[12:24:29 EDT(-0400)] <joan> 1 x item in the first xml.
[12:25:07 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel1: ping
[12:25:23 EDT(-0400)] <joan> michelled: my questions make sense?
[12:25:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yes, they do
[12:25:38 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> wish I had better answers for you
[12:26:44 EDT(-0400)] <joan> no problem. i suppose that the first component is always the hardest to be written. thanks for your help.
[12:27:00 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I think you should go ahead with your plan to put a message to the user to wait while the data is retrieved and rendered
[12:27:38 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no problem! it's great that you are learning all about the framework
[12:41:44 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> jamon: ping
[12:46:43 EDT(-0400)] * Lee_Bee (n=UXExpert@96.49.146.59) has joined #fluid-work
[12:47:58 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> I'm lurking.
[12:48:08 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> Lee_Bee: hi!
[12:48:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Commendable
[12:48:18 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Hi!
[12:48:35 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Thought I'd work beside y'all
[12:49:29 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Lee_Bee, nice to see you here
[12:49:38 EDT(-0400)] <jamon> laurel1: pong
[12:50:11 EDT(-0400)] <Lee_Bee> Thanks for the welcome. I like it here.
[12:51:16 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> I guess this JIRA issue is a prototype for other ones
[12:51:32 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Ultimately, I guess we may like to schedule a regular import of the XML into a Couch record
[12:51:42 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Much as we might in Engage itself...
[12:58:07 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> ATRC all off to a meeting...back in 1 hr.
[12:58:26 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> Ah
[12:58:29 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> It is that time
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[14:26:04 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> ATRC back (mostly - except for lunchers)
[14:30:00 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> The other parts of his blog are great too
[14:30:07 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> "Too eager to please the moment, over-specificity crippled all future moments. It was the image of organic, not the reality. The credo "form follows functions" was a beautiful lie. Form froze function."
[14:30:16 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> http://jonjagger.blogspot.com/search/label/agile
[14:32:05 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon2> "Work done in haste is necessarily shoddy, a house of cards. On a go-fast schedule there is no margin for a single error, and error is inevitable. High risk, high loss. The opposite strategy is much surer, because the errors are piecemeal and correctable. When you proceed deliberately mistakes don't cascade, they instruct. Low risk plus time equals high gain."
[14:34:36 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> Bosmon2, thanks for the link to the blog
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[14:41:50 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> justin_o: do you remember what the new externals are going to be called in fluid-all? Right now we have 'infusion', 'kettle' and 'engage'
[14:42:04 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the reason I'm asking is because the incubator build failed last night
[14:43:06 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it failed because it checks out fluid-all and copies fluid-all into the incubator webapp so that the externals in fluid-all will be siblings to the top level directories in the incubator
[14:43:37 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> we now have a top level directory called 'engage' so the copy failed and likewise things that depend on 'engage' being there will also fail
[14:52:17 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> jessm: can we skype?
[14:54:23 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel1: sure
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[15:02:53 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: question for you about the index.html page
[15:03:03 EDT(-0400)] * michelled listens
[15:03:47 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> so when fj40001 committed it, he had css in the html file. we moved that into it's own css file. However, it looks like we'll have to mount it or else it doesn't pull it in when we hit the index.html page
[15:04:00 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> so should we put the css back into the html
[15:04:30 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I'm tempted to say yes and open a JIRA for it
[15:04:41 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> let's get this puppy out
[15:04:56 EDT(-0400)] * jessm kicks said puppy out
[15:05:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> please don't kick puppies 
[15:05:25 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, sorry to interrupt: is it a known issue that the UI options dialog in the sakai mock-up is not keyboard accessible in Safari? I searched JIRA, but didn't see anything about it
[15:05:36 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> proverbial puppy!
[15:05:56 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> as release manager, i fofficially do not condone kicking puppies
[15:06:09 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> or any other adorable animals for that matter
[15:06:15 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I think it's a general Safari thing - isn't it? what in particular isn't working anastasiac?
[15:06:15 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> +1
[15:06:30 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, can't tab to the reset/save/cancel buttons
[15:06:41 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I know keyboard a11y is bad in Safari, but I don't know what JIRA covers this
[15:07:07 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> anastasiac: which verison of safari
[15:07:26 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> 4.0.2
[15:07:43 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> you may have to do option-tab
[15:08:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> anastasiac: I was able to tab to the buttons
[15:08:39 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I'm also using 4.0.2
[15:08:56 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: would that be a better solution if we put it in engage-client/demos/engageDemo or smth similar and mount it the same way we mount artifact and browse ; this way we have a standard separation of html, js, css and that demo would be live on the client too
[15:09:46 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> michelled, justin_o just informed me that in Safari, you have to use option+tab :-P
[15:10:03 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> I didn't know that
[15:10:19 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> weird that plain old tab works for me. I must have some browser setting
[15:10:27 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> jessm: so jamon has fixed the news - but has had to go and I suspect that the old feed address is now broken (jamon says it is).
[15:10:47 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yura1: the only thing that is slightly strange about putting the demo in engage-client is that it really won't do much
[15:10:47 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> i'm still checking though
[15:10:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> meaning all the links will end up loading the demo data
[15:11:10 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> and the point of the index page is to show cool real data
[15:12:03 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> so you suggesting to leave css in html ?
[15:12:14 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> it's really a demo of kettle + engage
[15:13:07 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> could you split it out in engage-server/demos/html & engage-server/demos/css
[15:13:18 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> would that work? could you mount the demos directory?
[15:13:51 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: will that affect your url rewriting?
[15:14:02 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> since this would be a new case
[15:14:52 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I'm not sure justin_o. I think it would still work. Bosmon2 are you around?
[15:22:18 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> jessm: no the old feed url I have does not work
[15:22:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel1: ok, thanks for checking – i'll put something about the feed address in the announcement
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[15:27:05 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled, Bosmon2: so yura got the page to load by using %26 instead of &.
[15:27:20 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> however this breaks our pages, since they expect an & instead of %26
[15:27:56 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> where did you have to use the %26?
[15:27:57 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> so two possible solutions, we could go in and fix it in the artifact pages by doing a string replace or something...
[15:28:07 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> the query string at the end of the url
[15:28:19 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the urls in the index page?
[15:28:21 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> for the links to the browse and view pages...
[15:28:25 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> yes, in index page
[15:28:32 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ok
[15:28:43 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> what was your second option?
[15:28:59 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> we could also write a javascript function used by the index page that programatically adds the url's on page load
[15:29:13 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> for the index.html page
[15:29:13 EDT(-0400)] <laurel1> thanks so much I'm still looking jessm: just in case I can find a good solution
[15:30:01 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> justin_o: did you use '&' in the links in the index page?
[15:30:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> laurel1: can you check with fj40001 re: testing at this point? i think we might have chased down the RSS feed as far as we need to
[15:30:12 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> no...we can try that
[15:30:19 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> give it a try
[15:30:20 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> and testing might be weighing fj40001 down
[15:30:52 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled it's the sax parse exception that is the problem at the moment... the server won't load
[15:31:03 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> & gave the smae error
[15:31:41 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: ^
[15:35:47 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> is the exception coming from kettle?
[15:40:24 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> justin_o: I suppose I prefer the option where the work around is in the index page instead of in the artifact
[15:40:56 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: i think it is coming from the java code
[15:42:43 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: so yura and i are implementing a work around. Adding another js file for the demo page, and just replacing %26 with "&"
[15:43:58 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> ok
[15:44:25 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> fj4000, I've finished my bundle testing. I don't have the right browsers/OS to do any of the remaining tasks...
[15:46:45 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> anastasiac: thanks
[15:46:52 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm: any luck with the news item?
[15:47:07 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: just sent it to you
[15:47:11 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> thanks
[15:47:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: it isn't brilliant, more functional
[15:48:08 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm: would you be able to make further edits inside the cms ?
[15:48:13 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> i can put this there to start
[15:48:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: let me test my login
[15:48:33 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> ok
[15:48:46 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> laurel1 has new creds, I think
[15:48:53 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> so you might not be able to get it
[15:48:57 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> *get in
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[15:49:40 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: i'm in
[15:49:53 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> awesome
[15:49:57 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> im saving it now
[15:50:03 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: you're speedy – it's already there!
[15:50:09 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> lol
[15:50:19 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> im just putting the rest of your text there
[15:50:23 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> one min.
[15:52:46 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm: question
[15:52:49 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> the demos
[15:52:57 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> http://fluidproject.org/products/infusion/infusion-demos/
[15:53:11 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> is this link ^ supposed to point to the new demo portal?
[15:54:14 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: i believe so – what did you and CC talk about?
[15:54:27 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> michelled: ^ verify?
[15:54:51 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> i dont think there was a resolved url
[15:55:12 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> we just knew we had to find something better
[15:55:33 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I haven't been involved in that conversation but it makes sense to me to have that link point to the demo portal
[15:55:44 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> so you're asking not "does this new demo portal replace the old demo page" but "do we keep the url?"
[15:57:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: ^
[15:58:46 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> In my opinion, the link I posted (http://fluidproject.org/products/infusion/infusion-demos/) should BE or POINT TO the demo portal
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[15:59:02 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> I think in the end, it will need to just point to
[15:59:16 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> since the build site houses the latest and greatest stuff
[15:59:24 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> not that url, as far as I know
[15:59:44 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> unless, this is a bad idea
[15:59:50 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> this is a bad idea
[15:59:55 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> since we wouldnt have demos in step with releases
[16:00:08 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I'm not following
[16:00:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> me either to be honest
[16:00:21 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> the demos would need to be from the latest release
[16:00:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yes
[16:00:28 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm: we need our demos to be in lockstep with the releases, right?
[16:00:32 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yes
[16:00:48 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> ok, then the portal needs to just be copied over there....thats fine
[16:01:08 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> we usually deploy the latest release on the server
[16:01:14 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> does this imply two copies of the latest release on the server?
[16:01:15 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> and the old demos page referenced that deployment
[16:01:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> yes
[16:01:19 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> wouldn't we do the same?
[16:01:31 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ugh
[16:01:46 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> so, the deplyment on the server needs to be upgraded to include the portal, no?
[16:02:03 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> why would we need two copies??
[16:02:04 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I'm not asking for them but I'm still not following
[16:02:16 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> not two
[16:02:17 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> one
[16:02:48 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> ok ok - so....
[16:02:52 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> my understanding is that we have a certain "release" on the site – we'll need to upgrade the site to this current release w/ portal. does that sound clear? make sense?
[16:03:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: okay... the index page seems to be working with the changes made... should we commit... you would need to try it with the war to make sure that mounting stuff doesn't break your scripts
[16:03:28 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sounds good justin_o
[16:03:29 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm, michelled, anastasiac: could we skype this out?
[16:03:41 EDT(-0400)] <anastasiac> jessm, yes: currently, 1.1 is deployed, used for FSS, and referenced by the existing demos page
[16:03:42 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> sure
[16:03:49 EDT(-0400)] * anastasiac launches skype
[16:03:54 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> when we do see Bosmon2 next we should talk to him about this justin_o - I'm not comfortable with the solution but I don't have a better one
[16:04:20 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: agreed
[16:08:22 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: I just commited to ENGAGE-125, you can try with the standalone now
[16:08:52 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yep
[16:14:25 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yura1: what url should I be trying?
[16:14:37 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> demo/index.html
[16:14:43 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: ^
[16:16:25 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: did it work ?
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[16:16:40 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> no - I get the index page
[16:16:46 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> but the links don't work
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[16:17:04 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> what url do you get for the links
[16:17:05 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> do they have the %26 there?
[16:17:27 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> I think I'm getting a different error
[16:17:35 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> you guys want to screen shar?
[16:17:45 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> do you have a link for us to take a look at?
[16:17:50 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> michelled: sure...
[16:17:53 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> you want to do ichat...
[16:17:59 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> sure
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[16:32:16 EDT(-0400)] <athena> what's the release schedule looking like now?
[16:36:26 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> athena: announcement tomorrow a.m.
[16:36:33 EDT(-0400)] <athena> awesome!
[16:36:35 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> athena: announcement of release
[16:36:35 EDT(-0400)] <athena> thanks jessm
[16:36:41 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> athena: where in the world are you?
[16:36:50 EDT(-0400)] <athena> at home in ct
[16:37:09 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> ah
[16:37:11 EDT(-0400)] <athena> completely distracted by the snow
[16:37:18 EDT(-0400)] * athena stares out the window in confusion
[16:37:19 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> athena: um, yeah!
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[16:37:37 EDT(-0400)] <athena> yeah i've never seen it snow like this this in october - it's sticking
[16:37:46 EDT(-0400)] <athena> not all the leaves have even turned
[16:38:05 EDT(-0400)] * athena is considering avoiding leaving the house this evening
[16:38:18 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> it's only october
[16:38:38 EDT(-0400)] <athena> yeah, this definitely caught me off guard
[16:38:57 EDT(-0400)] <athena> dunno if it's snowing other places
[16:39:12 EDT(-0400)] <athena> apparently it's not at yale
[16:40:12 EDT(-0400)] <athena> anyway, maybe i'll took a look at preparing us for upgrading uportal's fluid code rather than running errands . . .
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[17:05:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> Bosmon or Bosmon2: are you here?
[17:06:18 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Yes
[17:06:20 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I am here
[17:06:47 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> I assume that what is happening in the WAR, is that "engageStandaloneConfig" is being activated
[17:07:04 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> Bosmon it seems to be, yes
[17:07:32 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> Bosmon yes
[17:08:38 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> So, the mount directive there seems to be incorrect
[17:08:51 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> In that you are claiming that the contents of "engageDemo" are not to be rewritten
[17:08:56 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Whereas in fact you are trying to mount them at the root
[17:09:00 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Also, this file contains tabs
[17:09:22 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> You have written this:
[17:09:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> engageDemo: {
[17:09:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> target: "engageDemo/",
[17:09:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> source: "engageDemo/"
[17:09:23 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> }
[17:09:49 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> sorry about the tabs, missed linting that one
[17:09:56 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> isn't it relative to webapp though
[17:10:19 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Well, "target" signifies the path, in final URL space, you wish the resources to appear
[17:10:30 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> And I understood from Yura that you want them to appear at "/"
[17:10:51 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> oh that's another issue... so we did a workaround to that by using demo/
[17:11:05 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Although I guess really you just want the templated version of index.html to appear at "/" and are probably happy to have the resources continue to appear at the original place
[17:11:25 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> but the problem here is that running from eclipse the page loads fine, but if we do it from the war... the css and js files aren't loaded
[17:13:11 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Yes... well, this mount directive does not look correct
[17:14:09 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> hmm.. so what seems to be the mistake in the code... it seems strange that it works running from eclipse but not the war
[17:15:33 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Have you verified that the resources are actually in the WAR?
[17:16:52 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> michelled: the js and css files were in the war, right?
[17:17:01 EDT(-0400)] <michelled> yep
[17:17:09 EDT(-0400)] <yura1> Bosmon ^
[17:18:23 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> jessm, anastasiac, jameswy: I'm heading out
[17:18:40 EDT(-0400)] <fj40001> the news item will be released tomorrow hopefully, and the email sent out then
[17:18:51 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> fj40001: laterz – you rocked today!
[17:19:01 EDT(-0400)] * fj40001 plays bad air guitar
[17:19:07 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> And you have verified that they are being served at some URL?
[17:19:08 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> the news item will be released and announcement will happen tomorrow!
[17:28:21 EDT(-0400)] <jessm> k, guys, i'm off to walk the furry beast
[17:28:33 EDT(-0400)] <Bosmon> Sorry, need to go to a meeting.... back in 1 hour
[17:29:28 EDT(-0400)] <justin_o> Bosmon: i have to go too
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