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[09:09:26 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Good morning
[09:09:38 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Has Fluid been tested very much against NVDA?
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[09:46:19 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Morning, has fluid had much testing against NVDA?
[09:46:27 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Everett: Morning.
[09:46:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> None that I know of so far, no.
[09:46:47 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Colin, ok, Aaron was asking.
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[09:48:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Cool. We have a lot more screen reader testing we could and should be doing. We're just taking it one step at a time.
[09:48:19 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Understandable.
[09:50:30 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Colin: Aaron was asking if there are any Fluid widgets ready for testing / incorporation in the Free-ARIA testing suite.
[09:51:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I think there are several we could consider, yes.
[09:51:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That would be really cool.
[09:51:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Inline Edit and Reorderer are probably the two obvious ones.
[09:51:44 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Want to send me a list through e-mail of widgets to be considered?
[09:51:49 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Reorderer, of course, brings us right into the issue we talked about when you were here, though.
[09:52:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The fact that the ARIA folks don't see it as drag and drop, because it doesn't use copy/paste semantics.
[09:52:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> A bit frustrating, but it would be good to get it out there for people to look at.
[09:52:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll send you a list, sure.
[09:53:07 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Well we did have a bit of discussion about the idea of presenting AT with a list of drop targets and how not really useful that always is.
[09:53:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Yeah
[09:53:45 EST(-0500)] <Everett> So at least there is some openness there
[09:53:57 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That's good.
[09:54:16 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It's really great to have your help on this!
[09:54:30 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Did you manage to get that code I sent you working?
[09:54:39 EST(-0500)] <Everett> You're welcome. I enjoy doing it.
[09:55:05 EST(-0500)] <Everett> This afternoon I will be attempting (hopefully successfully) to setup an OpenSolaris box that I will be using for testing.
[09:56:01 EST(-0500)] <Everett> I got so far as to read through it and understand it, but didn't get to play with it yet. I counted this morning and I'm actually working on 9 things right now.
[09:56:36 EST(-0500)] <Everett> 4 of which will be completed before Christmas.
[09:58:17 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I know the feeling.
[09:58:26 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> At least you know how many things you'll actually get done!
[10:03:09 EST(-0500)] <Everett> Or, perhaps it's wishful thinking...
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[10:32:46 EST(-0500)] <michelled> jacobfarber: when you get a chance can you check that FLUID-1841 is in fact fixed now? If it is you can close the bug
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[10:48:41 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> sure thing
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[11:02:46 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> colinclark: thx for the jquery-dialog heads up from a few months ago. am using it now for all but a few of our dialogs
[11:03:07 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> sgithens342f: Awesome, that's great.
[11:04:27 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I did end up using the one bundled with Fluid-all at the moment. Occasionally I've ran into a bit of cabberwonkyness and mismatch between using Fluids bundle and matching it extra jquery plugins
[11:05:32 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> sgithens342f: Yep, that's not entirely unexpected.
[11:05:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We're working on our build process for the next release.
[11:05:48 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> nice
[11:05:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You'll be able to create your own custom builds
[11:06:11 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> like on the jquery UI page?
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[11:06:57 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I actually enjoy using Fluid-all and not having to get Jquery seperately, just have to be really explicit and keep track of what's already in it and the versions
[11:09:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> sgithens342f: Yep, exactly.
[11:09:47 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So our build will allow you to choose what goes into Fluid-all.js
[11:09:59 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So if you only use a couple of components, you can build only those.
[11:10:06 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And also choose what portions of jQuery are included.
[11:11:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Well, I'm really glad it's working for you.
[11:11:55 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Have you been playing with the Renderer at all?
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[11:31:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Are you around?
[11:32:50 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> When you're back:
[11:33:14 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Can you see about getting a Flash 10 environment set up so you can continue the keyboard a11y tests with it?
[11:33:24 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'll continue my research about keyboard focus in flash movies.
[11:33:40 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Hopefully this isn't as bad as it's starting to look for SWFUpload. 
[11:33:53 EST(-0500)] * Topic is 'cabberwonkyness' set by michelled on 2008-12-03 11:33:53 EST(-0500)
[11:34:42 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> cabberwonkyness!?!
[11:35:20 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> A sgithens342f term if I've ever heard one. 
[11:35:31 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> !!
[11:35:35 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> hmm
[11:36:50 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> for a good while we were really starting to increase the adoption of the word cabberwonky. I could have swore it was a word, or that I heard it from a friends in Minnesota, but we were never able to find any existence of it's usage
[11:37:29 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I try to use it occasionally, since it's great descriptor for certain areas of time and space
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[12:13:31 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> jacobfarber: You alive?
[12:13:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> sgithens342f: You will need evidence, if you mean to contribute it to the OED 
[12:15:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: jacobfarber is busy talking about art school right now.
[12:16:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> We are talking about the experience of "crits" in studio art classes.
[12:16:17 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> And how useful it is to learn how to take criticism from your peers about your work.
[12:16:18 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[12:16:18 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber>
[12:16:55 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> it really does help, in a way ....as long as you perservere.
[12:17:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes
[12:18:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> I find Rhizomic criticism is the most effective
[12:25:19 EST(-0500)] <colinclark>
[12:28:09 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark: I would like to move fluid.dom.isContainer back up to top level
[12:28:17 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, maybe I would....
[12:29:21 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: Ok. How come?
[12:29:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well, I was thinking of using it in the pager
[12:29:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> But my head is still reeling from the pager....
[12:30:05 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> In some ways it seems a tougher challenge than the Reorderer since there is so little structure on the problem
[12:30:28 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> How so?
[12:33:52 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Well
[12:33:59 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> You know
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[13:00:18 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> colinclark: Any remembrance of plans for the "onPageSelect" event?
[13:00:22 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It doesn't seem to be used
[13:00:31 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> hmm
[13:00:34 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Let me take a peek.
[13:01:48 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: That was an artifact of the refactoring process. It can be removed.
[13:01:54 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> ok, cool
[13:02:04 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> onPageChange is current the only event we fire, as you point out.
[13:02:24 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> My plan is to do something "unusual" and have the subcomponents communicate upstream via an event named "initiatePageChange"
[13:05:04 EST(-0500)] * michelled is assuming there is no stand up today because we had a monthly meeting
[13:06:43 EST(-0500)] * michelled was wrong
[13:22:34 EST(-0500)] <michelled> colinclark: is this JIRA done? http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-1840
[13:22:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Bosmon: That sounds unusual.
[13:23:10 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I'd be curious to chat more about it sometime today.
[13:23:39 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> michelled: I think that one is a documentation task, so anastasiac probably knows best.
[13:24:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Justin_o: Some interesting progress on the Flash button accessibility issue.
[13:25:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Firefox is undoubtedly worse than IE when it comes to managing focus.
[13:25:22 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> It looks like it's ultimately Adobe's fault.
[13:25:40 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> hmm... i guess that makes it more difficult for us
[13:25:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Using the SWFUpload simple button demo, keyboard navigation is fairly seamless.
[13:25:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> http://demo.swfupload.org/v220beta3/simpledemo/index.php
[13:26:03 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> At least in IE 7.
[13:26:09 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> Using Flash 10.
[13:26:49 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> how were you able to get focus on it yesterday
[13:26:58 EST(-0500)] <Justin_o> were you using firefox then or ie
[13:27:23 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> In Firefox using Flash 9 on the Mac.
[13:27:35 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I could get focus on the Flash button if I hit tab twice.
[13:27:43 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> But then focus gets stuck inside the Flash movie.
[13:27:58 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> I believe there is a potential workaround. It's exactly as jacobfarber was speculating.
[13:28:28 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> i think it might take some Flash fandangling
[13:38:16 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled: FLUID-1840 is NOT done - it is dependent on FLUID-1833, I believe. That's done now, but Bosmon is also working on Pager, so I'm holding off on updating the docs
[13:59:19 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Yes, I imagine I will change the API quite a bit
[14:00:32 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The JQuery eq() function looks rather bizarre
[14:00:36 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Why was it even provided?
[14:00:44 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Ah, I guess it wraps the result...
[14:01:12 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Crazy name though
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[15:28:14 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I'm looking at the Advanced Reorderer API, and am wondering if there is an options I'm missing that will just use all the current CSS class styles on something when dragging it. Rather than explicitly having to copy/assign them all to the orderable-dragging. Basically so it just looks the same when you're dragging it around
[15:41:45 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Erm
[15:41:50 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> Isn't that just what happens by default?
[15:42:20 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The default avatar renderer simply copies the entire markup
[15:42:56 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> sgithens342f
[15:43:08 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> The 342nd in our noble line
[15:45:36 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> ajh
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[15:45:37 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> ah
[15:45:46 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> perhaps something I"m doing is just goofy
[15:45:56 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> in IE nothing is showing up when I drag
[15:46:25 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> (not even content)
[15:46:44 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> but it still works
[16:10:09 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> this is a bit silly
[16:10:31 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> but I'm not sure how to hook up the events, like 'afterMove'
[16:10:51 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> none of the examples under sample-code seem to use these in the reorderer
[16:11:15 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> the jquery-tabs seems to have some events but they look like regular jquery events
[16:12:55 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> the wiki tutorial seems to stop just short of working with the newly reordered content
[16:14:23 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> (sorry for the complaining. I would typically try to figure this out from the code, but am sort of stuck as being an end user of fluid at the moment due to time constraints )
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[16:18:17 EST(-0500)] <jessm> sgithens342f: not sure where everyone is
[16:18:31 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> no stress
[16:24:40 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> oh, I think it now on the regular List Reorderer API page
[16:25:32 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> little confused by the seperate of the API into a regular and advanced page, rather than having all the options on one page
[16:26:50 EST(-0500)] <jessm> hrm – that's an anastasiac question and i know there's a bunch of documentation work that is getting underway now
[16:27:05 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> might be cool to think about an alphabetical API reference down the road like jquery has
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[16:30:21 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac is catching up on documentation comments from sgithens342f
[16:31:02 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I also mention this because it seems to be a source of common confusion. Another internal project here added the Reorderer to an OSP project a few weeks. Everyone was impressed by how easy it was to get working, but sat around scratching our heads trying to figure out how to get the data back.
[16:31:35 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> like on the jquery sortables tutorial it goes straight to telling about the function to retrieve the new order
[16:32:06 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I know Bosmon pointed me to a function on the fluid reorderer ( I can remember the function name now ) that has the cached jquery object that contains the current order
[16:32:22 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> might be nice add that to the docs
[16:32:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> sgithens342f, our tutorials would definitely benefit from your feedback - they are a bit lacking in 'user testing'
[16:33:41 EST(-0500)] * anastasiac reviews the avatar creation and styling code
[16:34:43 EST(-0500)] <michelled> is this the callback you're looking for sgithens342f? http://wiki.fluidproject.org/x/CAAs
[16:35:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> sgithens, the default behaviour for the avatar is to clone the item being dragged and add the avatar class to it
[16:35:58 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> ah yeah, cool thanks.
[16:36:10 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> it's even there on the advanced page, I just missed it
[16:36:21 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> is this not working for you?
[16:36:26 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> sorry. might still be nice to have an example of addign the listeners in one of the samples
[16:36:34 EST(-0500)] * michelled is realizing that the page she sent might be ancient
[16:36:45 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> yes, we could use more examples
[16:36:48 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> michelled: no that's exactly it
[16:36:51 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> thx
[16:37:13 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> our tutorials are pretty basic at this point, and don't cover these kinds of customizations yet
[16:37:29 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> anastasiac: um, in IE7 there is just nothing when I drag. YOu can see the page fidget just a bit and it works
[16:37:35 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> michelled, yes - this page is outdated and should be removed
[16:37:43 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I mean, the sample demos work in IE7
[16:37:49 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> not sure what is cabberwonky with my page
[16:38:04 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I'm moving this from jquery sortables, so maybe something is ugly and wrong with the html
[16:38:09 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> sgithens342f, this is good to know!
[16:38:17 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> but I can see most of the avatar when I'm in FF
[16:38:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> is your page served/committed anywhere that we can have a look at it?
[16:38:46 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> this is obviously a use case we don't handle properly yet
[16:39:09 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> http://149.166.143.211:10080/portal/site/usedtools/page/e53103f8-4179-41b5-bee1-e286ea93034c you can log in with user: seb001 and passwd: tester
[16:39:16 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> it's still ugly
[16:39:33 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> the top one is the new fluid table. the bottom one is the previous list that used jquery sortable
[16:40:23 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> I haven't hook up the event yet
[16:41:17 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, I can see the avatar problem
[16:41:21 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> or rather, not-see it
[16:41:25 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> as the case may be
[16:41:30 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f>
[16:43:11 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> hm
[16:43:24 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> ok, we're calling on jacobfarber, our css guru
[16:46:14 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> looks like your just dragging just a TR, im wonderin if there is something wrong in IE due to that.....
[16:46:45 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> the avatar element is appended to the dom - so in this case, a TR is being appended outside of a table
[16:47:03 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> I don't see any styles specific to TR elements, though
[16:47:23 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> jacobfarber: would the mere presence of a TR out in the wild be enough to make IE refuse to style it?
[16:48:34 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> well, a more obvious place to look would be the display:none part
[16:48:45 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> thats somehow sticking to the avatar
[16:48:54 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> im guessing because its out of context
[16:49:45 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> So, sgithens342f, I can help clarify the afterMove event.
[16:50:37 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That document michelled passed along is a bit out of date, but it does show something useful: how to register your own listeners for a component's events.
[16:50:44 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> You just do that as part of the configuration:
[16:50:54 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> ....ugh, then the display switches, so that doesnt sound right either....
[16:51:33 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> sgithens342f: http://fluid.pastebin.com/d4c444439
[16:51:54 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The part that's missing from the documentation is the set of arguments that get passed to this listener.
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[16:52:11 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It's looking like we really do need to reverse this policy of appending the avatar to the DOM
[16:52:16 EST(-0500)] <Bosmon> It causes more problems than it solves
[16:52:24 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> colinclark, sgithens342f, this is more up-to-date: http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/Reorderer+Events
[16:52:33 EST(-0500)] <jacobfarber> Bosmon: maybe your right
[16:52:40 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> it lists the arguments
[16:52:41 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> The afterMove event gets three arguments: the item that just got moved, the position it was moved to, and a list of all the movable items.
[16:52:55 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> That last argument is key. You can get the order of each item from it.
[16:53:11 EST(-0500)] <colinclark> anastasiac: Awesome, thanks.
[16:57:27 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> ack, sorry have to run
[16:57:32 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> thanks for all the feedback
[16:57:43 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> will be getting back to it first thing in the morning
[16:57:58 EST(-0500)] <sgithens342f> the server will be up if you need to look at the ie avator thing at all
[16:58:36 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> good night, sgithens342f!
[16:58:58 EST(-0500)] <anastasiac> thanks for the feedback on the documentation - any suggestions are helpful
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